New starting option for bigworld

[Avion]

I am in the process of making some changes which will allow players to choose the city they wish to start in when they make a new character. Initially the choice will be between Scorn and Navar but of course two is as good as a dozen so in the future I expect more choices may become available. I would like to see these added slowly however with some good supporting maps provided in the starting locations (lower level adventures, an inn and shops - a beginners tutorial). Once a player leaves the Hall of selection they will be given the choice of starting in Scorn or Navar (for now) and messages will be given to the effect that Scorn is perhaps the best place for new players and is the most popular choice with good support for beginning adventurers but Navar is good for more advanced players who need less guidance and like to go farther afield to find adventure.

This is just for bigworld and currently there is no 'citizenship' features with starting locations (although I would love to see something like this in the near future). Currently this change will just save you the long walk but hopefully it will also encourage some community and map development in the Navar region. In the long run it might take some of the pressure of certain maps by relocating a portion of the player community and exposing new maps to the popular pool.

SO - to go along with this what additions would you like to see in Navar to support a new (and slightly more advanced) character starting position?

[EmperorBMA]

To add to this (as was discussed in #crossfire) :

I think it would also be a good idea to have a newbie town and prevent possible duplication of newbie areas in Navar that Scorn already has.

To do so, we would have the game first give the "Hall of Selection" for class choice. Then we would enter a newbie "Hall of Basic Training" that has a small town with a shop (that doesn't have extremely powerful stuff, just some basics), the Beginners and Beginners 2 houses from Scorn and the Newbie tower as well as a few other basic training areas to get a newbie up a few levels early on.

After they are done and they want to move on, they enter the "Portal Room", which will give them a choice of starting towns (Scorn or Navar at the moment).

OK, that sums up my idea... things can be added or subtracted but basically that is the idea.

If we want we can have a return portal for newbies who rush through by mistake, and block access to all people over level 5, or we could have it where you can go back whenever you wish if you can find the portal, or we could skip the return and once you leave you cannot come back...


---- ADDENDUM ----- (Parts of this are another direct from IRC rip from)

Point for consideration, On the benefit of keeping older players further away from newbies:

When the older players help newer ones, they think in terms of the older player... Things newbies are more likely to see are just overlooked automatically by them because older folks do know more... Therefore, they usually give Mithril Chainmail or Artifact items to newbies.

The Newbie gets this cool junk and thinks they can kill powerful stuff, and they can... sometimes. But they are usually creamed and mad about dying all the time, not to mention the experience and stat loss that incurs. This is another reason to argue for a newbie area and keep older folks a little more distant...

As a result, a newbie area that is isolated gives a perfect incubation environment where they can experience the basics they need to survive first. Then they can get the powerful items because they know how to better use them to their advantage, but don't rely on the whims of the RNG and the item's good favor. Additionally, the player learns to fend for themselves and can become powerful by knowing the true limits of what can be done with or without the items.

Optimally, a portal to allow level 5 or better would allow returning to the newbie area. Even the never return situation is acceptable tho, because they opted out of the training, and thus forfeit its benefit...

[tchize]

First, a picture from cocoon world (aka newbie world) am working on.
http://users.skynet.be/tchize/cocoon.png

I have discussed some times ago on IRC about the possibility to create some newbies world, where real newbies (those who never played crossfire) could learn some tricks on the game (like how to bind keys, say and apply commands, what is food how to kill and so on).

To do this i created a house where players could start. It's not possible to get out of house without knowing how to say a magic word and without applying a lever. But there is plenty of food and bed saves on the map. In the house they can also learn the interest of speaking with npc (only the npc know the exit magic word) and how to fight. (Putted some ants)

After this house, there is some world where they could meet goblins, ants, dogs and others not too dangerous monster. On this map they could also learn what a swamp is and why it's a bad idea to get in them. They could also learn the interest of ready signs and so on. There would be some shop with low level items.

One thing i planned to add too is magic and priest limitations. Though this has not been decided yet, i thought to do it to overcome 2 problems
1) don't allow easy magic player killing in newbie world
2) don't move all temples from world to bigworld because some them have the particularity to be difficult to reach

Concerning the fact of getting out of the newbie world, the most common opinion is
1) Don't let people comme back to newbie world
2) Let people get away from newbie world whenever they want (some skilled players may want to reach scorn immediatly)


Now concerning the idea suggested to allow reaching Navar instead of scorn or things like that.
Perhaps this could be implemented at the exit of newbie world. But either you do it at exit of newbie world, either you get rid of newbie world and implement it at exist of HallofSelection, you must always think about putting god temples on each town in bigworld.
Actually, bigworld really need it. Am not sure but i think temples are only near scorn, and when you need an altar, either you consacrate one if you are level enough, either you go on for a trip, a big big trip.

[Avion]

I would like to see some better training areas (add or upgrade the existing ones) certainly but I am still not sure I like the idea of having a entire 'newbie world' but I am very sure that there should be a full compliment of facillities for players in Navar. This would mean a full set of temples and a range of shops and enough lower level maps in the near area for players to get past that level 1-6 range before they have to start roving too much. I chose Navar since I thought it would be the easiest to bring up to snuff as a full service community.
Some problems I see with entire 'Newbie world' are that we currently have a central newbie starting area - it's called Scorn. Now when everyone starts in Scorn there is a run on popular maps and folks tend to get lazy and wait for resets rather than go exploring. - I think having a another area with a different set of tutorials and services would be nice. It would be nice to replay the game from a different starting position. Locking players into a small area for levels 1-5 seems unnecessary and it isn't like there is a lack of realestate so repeating services like training houses and temples sn't a real problem (with some fun differences even). If this was a small area, the maps would have to be unique so that they wern't all cleaned out by the first player in and then you couldn't have players teaming up on them. Given a seperate Newbie world- you also oose some of the mingling that occurs between high and low levels, you have players who are experienced not wanting to use the training area (a lot of these) so you have to provide low level maps in other places anyway.
Also many places would have to be redone because they are now redundant. There are a lot of areas and quests in Scorn particularily that would be pretty useless if there was a dedicated training world. Either those maps and quests would be moved and new stuff would have to be made to replace the gaps or they would become ignored areas.

It's one thing to add to existing areas, it is entirely another to reorganize large parts of current adventures. I had thought that by adding Navar as an optional starting position it would mean we could start building out from both Scorn and Navar as well - increasing the dangers as we move outwards. Also given the number of players, I can't see the need for another starting position for quite some time.

I think we should look into extending services in Navar by doing stuff like adding a training house, more low level maps, and some quest leads, adding temples and perhaps making the city streets no-magic areas. In any case I think it is less work for probably the same end result and there are some other benefits as well.

[tchize]

Some problems I see with entire 'Newbie world' are that we currently have a central newbie starting area - it's called Scorn.

I have seen several times newbies wandering in Scorn, not knowing what to do and ending getting lost. Have even seen some players who didn't know how to enter a map. The fact Scorn contain very low level maps isn't enough to make it a good newbie starting point IMO

Now when everyone starts in Scorn there is a run on popular maps and folks tend to get lazy and wait for resets rather than go exploring. - I think having a another area with a different set of tutorials and services would be nice.

agree

It would be nice to replay the game from a different starting position.

Once again, agree

Locking players into a small area for levels 1-5 seems unnecessary

Who spoke of 'locking'. Once again the idea is
1) to protect newbies (this could prevent the "get that mithril mail" problem exposed a bit up
2) Let them leave if players (i spoke of player, not character) feel they are skilled enough. If you don't like newbie world, get the portal to Scorn (or navar). But if you don't know how to enter the town hall (a simple 'apply' on enter), you can't reach Scorn, you still have to learn a bit.
3) no map reset problems. I use a system of unkillable invisible generators, so there are always monster (even though they are not fast to respawn, purpose is not to make an exp vault)

you have players who are experienced not wanting to use the training area (a lot of these) so you have to provide low level maps in other places anyway.

I didn't speak about removing quests

Also many places would have to be redone because they are now redundant. There are a lot of areas and quests in Scorn particularily that would be pretty useless if there was a dedicated training world. Either those maps and quests would be moved and new stuff would have to be made to replace the gaps or they would become ignored areas.

No those quest won't be useless. Don't forget the castle quest earns player artefacts and as i said, you are not forced to stay in the newbie world.

It's one thing to add to existing areas, it is entirely another to reorganize large parts of current adventures.

As i explaned it's not really reorganisation. It's cheking players know how to use crossfire, what are low level monsters, and letting them develop without interaction with high levels if they want.

I didn't want to say having additionnal quests in navar and an additionnal starting point won't be good. But could you at least consider, for putting the scorn/navar portals, putting them in the very newbie starting house i made (i'll upload it on my ftp so you can check/improve/kill/drop it what ever you want). This one ensure player at least know the 'bind' 'apply' 'say' commands

[Avion]

I didn't want to say having additionnal quests in navar and an additionnal starting point won't be good. But could you at least consider, for putting the scorn/navar portals, putting them in the very newbie starting house i made (i'll upload it on my ftp so you can check/improve/kill/drop it what ever you want). This one ensure player at least know the 'bind' 'apply' 'say' commands

Sure, I'll consider anything you like. I believe you have as much access to commit things as I do anyway . BTW, I don't see any problems with a training house to teach the basic skills prior to the city portals - that's probably a good idea - I was considering problems with making an entire 'Newbie world' (I think mention was made of a largeish area for levels 1-5...)

--P.S.
I also wouldn't see a problem with having three portals off the 'Nexus', one to Scorn, one to Navar and one to 'Newbie World'...

[Leaf]

A little late for me to join the discussion, just offering my viewpoint (er, opinion.. )

Having a "newbie world" is a great idea - being able to direct new players to -any- building on a map is convenient and (I hope..) less frustrating for the new player since they will no longer be able to wander into a map that is clearly to high a level for them. I've seen a number of players clear out Beginners map and then wander down to the Undead church to encounter the zombies in the worship area - whoops! Other cases, someone logs in and asks for help. Instead of receiving advice on how to play - people start handing over artifact items. Next thing you know this character is now level 7 or higher and still doesn't know how to use altars to detect magic or detect curse.

Also, giving the players the ability to skip "newbie world" for either the challenge of it or due to over confidence should keep returning players relatively content.

As far as making Navar a newbie friendly map and without duplicating the beginner maps of Scorn. I haven't had the opportunity to explore Navar in bigworld - is it ready for such a role?

[tchize]

Sure, I'll consider anything you like. I believe you have as much access to commit things as I do anyway .

If i submitted in disscusion instead of commiting my work in CVS is for 3 reason

1) even if the 'newbie world' is layed out as you can see on screenshot, it still lack a pack of minor quest and lots of tutorials. IT will still be a long long work. And i still have to check them on new server code (i used detect inventory linked to the physical skill to not let monsters through at some points)

2) It's a big change that will be subject to lots of discussion. So i'll start with some patches to download apart from cvs, for tests, I'll consider remarks that will be made and then if players seems happy with the map, i'll cvs commit them.

3) Last but not least, to prevent doing several time the same job, to synchronise a bit our ideas

I'll try to submit the teaching house for remarks on mailing list as soon as possible (this mean as soon as i reboot my linux box)

[Avion]

So I summarize - three options/recommendations

1. a new training house for beginners that is located prior to entering the world (e.g. scorn or Navar or whatever)

2. a 'newbie world' that players can choose to enter or bypass if they do not require training. (having three starting positions - Newbie, regular, and advanced?)

3. Adding appropriate services to Navar to make it usable as an advanced starting city - notably by adding
- a some more low level maps (level 1-5 ish maps which are not 'newbie maps' or necessarily easy maps)
- low level shops to support players
- temples or at least altars for all the gods to support worship
- banning magic form the city streets (?)

[tchize]

So I summarize - three options/recommendations

1. a new training house for beginners that is located prior to entering the world (e.g. scorn or Navar or whatever)

seems mandatory to me

2. a 'newbie world' that players can choose to enter or bypass if they do not require training. (having three starting positions - Newbie, regular, and advanced?)

Thought only of a newbie starting position which could be bypassed to access regular game (scorn navar or anything else). Not 3 different newbies world (one is already lots of work)

3. Adding appropriate services to Navar to make it usable as an advanced starting city - notably by adding
- a some more low level maps (level 1-5 ish maps which are not 'newbie maps' or necessarily easy maps)
- low level shops to support players
- temples or at least altars for all the gods to support worship
- banning magic form the city streets (?)

about magic banning, perhaps a better idea would be an non player versus player area. But that need code in server.