Considering the current form of guilds, they are rather inequitable and prone to abuse. I propose a set of changes that could improve this situation, or at least start discussion on how to improve the status quo.
The first change I propose is to create a so called "Tower of guilds" where all guild house portals will be located. Within the tower is a clerk where one can ask to join a guild. If it requires a quest for membership, the clerk will respond with the quest, otherwise she will give you a guild item. The guild item, when worn, allows the wearer to step onto the guild portal and enter the guild of their choice. This also allows multiguild players because it only checks what you are wearing. The portal does not work if you wear no item. When dropped, a guild item disappears and you must ask the clerk for another item. Default is a medallion image.
This allows no limit on guilds and allows all players who wish to form groups to do so.
To ask to join a guild, say "join <guild name>" when near the clerk. To ask for a lost guild item say "lost item <guild name>".
To found one, ask the clerk "create <guildname>" at which point she will ask 2 members to trigger the switches and you drop the 10000 diamonds on the altar. A temporary item is created "temp item <rand ID number>" to act as a temporary guild item until the players design their own, and submit the image and name to a DM.
Additionally, there will be class guilds by default mage classes, fighter classes and clerics. These will be automatically joined upon class entry, and cannot be changed. They merely act as a forum for players of the same class to collaborate instead of having a free for all, but members are not obliged to do anything. The doors block all people who are not members of that class, saying "The guard pushes you out, seeing that you aren't a <class>".
I hope I can at least stir discussion and I have people who are willing to help design the maps if it becomes necessary.
Comments, flames, commiserations?
Guild revamp
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Re: Guild revamp
Okay... stirring up discussion... 
How is the quest created or run? (random maps?)
If they (the guild ) don't - then just asking the clerk will will grant guild access?
How are guild names selected or created? Can the guild name be modified at any point? If so, how?
How are guild names, requirements, etc. tracked within the game?
How about "outside" the game? (if necessary, via designated webpage, message board, etc.)
Will each guild have it's own unique map as a headquarters? Or, will they all use the same template (like they do now..)?
If a headquarters is used, how will guild location be determined?
Can the headquarters be moved? If so, how?
Can a guild have more then 1 headquarters? If so, how?
Not sure where some of these questions fit within the quoted material, but here's some additional questions I have.
When I login, how do I know if any fellow guild members are logged in?
Special 'who command maybe?
How do I communicate with these fellow guild members?
Special channels, like the party say but you with more refinements like:
guild_say <message> (broadcast to all guild channels player is a member of)
guild_<name> <message> (broadcast to specific guild)
Something along these lines - who command based on guilds as well?
guild_who
[OT] Hmm, the more complicated I seem to make these guild features, the more useful the proposed scripting interface is..
http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail ... 05068.html
I think I may have stirred too much...
So, each guild can choose whether or not a quest is required to join the guild?EmperorBMA wrote: The first change I propose is to create a so called "Tower of guilds" where all guild house portals will be located. Within the tower is a clerk where one can ask to join a guild. If it requires a quest for membership, the clerk will respond with the quest, otherwise she will give you a guild item. The guild item, when worn, allows the wearer to step onto the guild portal and enter the guild of their choice. This also allows multiguild players because it only checks what you are wearing. The portal does not work if you wear no item. When dropped, a guild item disappears and you must ask the clerk for another item. Default is a medallion image.
How is the quest created or run? (random maps?)
If they (the guild ) don't - then just asking the clerk will will grant guild access?
Allowing players to have access to unlimited number of guilds.. I've noticed this to be somewhat of a problem - current guild code does not grant players any way of knowing who the members of a guild are, who the founding members are or disable guild access (have members removed).EmperorBMA wrote: This allows no limit on guilds and allows all players who wish to form groups to do so.
So, instead of having a finite number of guilds - you are proposing an infinite number of guilds.EmperorBMA wrote: To found one, ask the clerk "create <guildname>" at which point she will ask 2 members to trigger the switches and you drop the 10000 diamonds on the altar. A temporary item is created "temp item <rand ID number>" to act as a temporary guild item until the players design their own, and submit the image and name to a DM.
How are guild names selected or created? Can the guild name be modified at any point? If so, how?
How are guild names, requirements, etc. tracked within the game?
How about "outside" the game? (if necessary, via designated webpage, message board, etc.)
Will each guild have it's own unique map as a headquarters? Or, will they all use the same template (like they do now..)?
If a headquarters is used, how will guild location be determined?
Can the headquarters be moved? If so, how?
Can a guild have more then 1 headquarters? If so, how?
This could be cool - are these guilds run or organized? Or is it a free-for-all?EmperorBMA wrote: Additionally, there will be class guilds by default mage classes, fighter classes and clerics. These will be automatically joined upon class entry, and cannot be changed. They merely act as a forum for players of the same class to collaborate instead of having a free for all, but members are not obliged to do anything. The doors block all people who are not members of that class, saying "The guard pushes you out, seeing that you aren't a <class>".
Not sure where some of these questions fit within the quoted material, but here's some additional questions I have.
When I login, how do I know if any fellow guild members are logged in?
Special 'who command maybe?
How do I communicate with these fellow guild members?
Special channels, like the party say but you with more refinements like:
guild_say <message> (broadcast to all guild channels player is a member of)
guild_<name> <message> (broadcast to specific guild)
Something along these lines - who command based on guilds as well?
guild_who
[OT] Hmm, the more complicated I seem to make these guild features, the more useful the proposed scripting interface is..
http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail ... 05068.html
I think I may have stirred too much...
I have been thinking on this for a year and done some work on the idea so I might just chime in about this and explain what I have been thinking/doing (you can read about all my past discussion on this topic in the mail list archives). This might be long so bear with me...
I was working on a realestate system thta would allow players to own houses much like the current guilds - shared space, keyed access, quest/cash based bonus items like portals, and persistant items (areas of unique floors). I had worked out a map templating system using python plugin to allow players to purchase a house and have a set of maps created that customized the house for them. I made a bunch of different building templates (sets of maps where the exits and inventory checkers were 'replacable' via script) and used python to insert player forces into the home owners inventory to activate the doors and stuff. Well I hit a wall with the python plugin because I don't believe in having something in the game that isn't optinal that requires optional components like the plugins installed and much of this was getting pretty hard coded into the maps so I converted to trying to do this in C. SO I won't go into the python thing (I will come back to this later however when speaking on guilds however)
I made a new exit type that can be unique objects in the sense that when places on a map they are persistant (not like current 'unique' exits) and I created an altar type called a 'lot' that would be available to map makers and DM's to place in certain areas where housing would be allowed. The basic idea was that you would go to a store, buy a 'blueprint' for a building (related to a template mapset) and drop it on a lot to create a custom map and a unique(object) exit to that map. When a building is created a copy of the template associated with the blueprint is written to the overlay map folder (var/crossfire/maps) and the map and exit is handled normally using unique-items. The great thing is that this can be extended pretty easily by making new templates in the map editor and adding a blueprint for that template. I was in the process of adding in support for multipart buildings so that a 2x2 building would require a cluster of 4 lots.
If the player should quit - a cleanup script would run that removed the map and the entries in unique items folder to clean up abandoned houses. This script could be adjusted if someone wanted to implement a tax system or something later on...
So the realestate thing is not so far out - I have to figure out how to use the map handling routines to do the templating and save these maps to the overlay folder in var is really the thing. It was sort of working with scripting but was not a good way of doing it (brute force string manipulation and file creation), in learning how the server code works, I see how it would be better to load the maps and manipulate them like the server does (using as much of the existing code as possble too). The python building cleanup code for when players quit is probably salvagable however.
HOUSES
Of corurse the basis for the system is to provide houses. I have an example template for two types of house, the bungalow and the Keep (bungalow is three stories and small, keep is 5 stories and large). These are much like apartments but with two critical differences - you can invite in other players (to the main areas anyway) and you can put them where you want them. They are actually more like the existing guild maps in this respect.
Now moving on to more speculative works...
GUILDS
I had envisioned that this system could be used as a basis for guilds and temples as well. The difference would be that I would like to see guilds work more like the religions but much simpler where there is an actual object called a guild which can store stuff like a list of players and a score.
The first time a guild is formed would entail a group of really wealthy players buying a guildHQ and putting it on a 'lot' somewhere. One of the rooms/maps of the guildHQ is the room where the guild oracle (flame, grimoire, crystal ball?) is. The oracle room would also be accessable to guild founders and would have access to other founder's only areas (trophy cases and control room for initiations ) Any player with lots and lots of cash could buy a guildHQ but it would not be a guild (just a big house) but an actual guild is formed when the guild oracle is activated. It would take three players to activate the guild oracle and they would become the founders.
The guild oracle is actually like a message board of sorts where the founders can get a list of members, check their score, set passwords, remove members for the guild, promote members to founders... This would all be driven by the guild object which would store the guild members and other useful information (like the founder list, guild name, password).
Players would only be allowed to be in one guild at a time and this information would be in a player force inserted into the player when they are initiated into the guild. Players would be initiated into the guild by being brought into the 'initiation room' and sitting in a chair while a founder thows a switch (fireworks, inserts this guild force,removes any other guild force...) The guild force would do stuff like allow access to guild only areas, be used to assign points to the guild for special quests maybe, collect dues perhaps.
A guild could only have one HQ, but there could be 'branch' guildhalls available for purchase which contained portals back to the HQ (a good way to make portals between towns and incentive to build more guild halls). The templates for a guild would be a bit more complex than normal houses because there would be three types of area to access, password access for more general areas where it would be possible to have guests and initiates, guild member access for guild members only, and founder access for the HQ functions.
There would also be some postings of the guild ratings in some places. I can see guilds getting points for the number of members, the number of branches or maybe even certain quests done by guild members.
Of course like houses, when the last founder quits the guild - the guild is recycled.
This I did some intiial work on using the python plugin (like making a guild 'bank' to store players names and founders and the initiation room where the player force is inserted admist lighting bolts and fire) but now I'm thinking of doing it over in the main server code - probably not really hard to do unless you are new to it like I am.
TEMPLES
Somewhat more simple than the guilds (ok, a lot simpler), I can see temples as another special type of building. In this case when you buy the blueprint and place it on a lot your religion is checked and a temple is put down for your god in your name witha nice plaque or whatever.. This would be a good way to bleed money from higher level players to encourage them to sperad the faith and promote their name. It could also be handy for spreading healing and altars around the world maps. There could be shrines, temples and cathedrals availabe for unreasonable prices. These wouldn't have unique flooring perhaps, but if the builder quits they couls be cleaned up as well.
Anyway - there is my thoughts on this based on a year of fiddling, pondering, little progress but lots of learning. I bet you are sorry you brought it up eh? If anyone wants to see the templates I can make them available, they are mostly functional (but without the templating system to instantiate them as actual linked maps) but with many 'quests' not assigned (things like setting the price of 20 beholder tongues for a jewlers bench cauldren...)
I was working on a realestate system thta would allow players to own houses much like the current guilds - shared space, keyed access, quest/cash based bonus items like portals, and persistant items (areas of unique floors). I had worked out a map templating system using python plugin to allow players to purchase a house and have a set of maps created that customized the house for them. I made a bunch of different building templates (sets of maps where the exits and inventory checkers were 'replacable' via script) and used python to insert player forces into the home owners inventory to activate the doors and stuff. Well I hit a wall with the python plugin because I don't believe in having something in the game that isn't optinal that requires optional components like the plugins installed and much of this was getting pretty hard coded into the maps so I converted to trying to do this in C. SO I won't go into the python thing (I will come back to this later however when speaking on guilds however)
I made a new exit type that can be unique objects in the sense that when places on a map they are persistant (not like current 'unique' exits) and I created an altar type called a 'lot' that would be available to map makers and DM's to place in certain areas where housing would be allowed. The basic idea was that you would go to a store, buy a 'blueprint' for a building (related to a template mapset) and drop it on a lot to create a custom map and a unique(object) exit to that map. When a building is created a copy of the template associated with the blueprint is written to the overlay map folder (var/crossfire/maps) and the map and exit is handled normally using unique-items. The great thing is that this can be extended pretty easily by making new templates in the map editor and adding a blueprint for that template. I was in the process of adding in support for multipart buildings so that a 2x2 building would require a cluster of 4 lots.
If the player should quit - a cleanup script would run that removed the map and the entries in unique items folder to clean up abandoned houses. This script could be adjusted if someone wanted to implement a tax system or something later on...
So the realestate thing is not so far out - I have to figure out how to use the map handling routines to do the templating and save these maps to the overlay folder in var is really the thing. It was sort of working with scripting but was not a good way of doing it (brute force string manipulation and file creation), in learning how the server code works, I see how it would be better to load the maps and manipulate them like the server does (using as much of the existing code as possble too). The python building cleanup code for when players quit is probably salvagable however.
HOUSES
Of corurse the basis for the system is to provide houses. I have an example template for two types of house, the bungalow and the Keep (bungalow is three stories and small, keep is 5 stories and large). These are much like apartments but with two critical differences - you can invite in other players (to the main areas anyway) and you can put them where you want them. They are actually more like the existing guild maps in this respect.
Now moving on to more speculative works...
GUILDS
I had envisioned that this system could be used as a basis for guilds and temples as well. The difference would be that I would like to see guilds work more like the religions but much simpler where there is an actual object called a guild which can store stuff like a list of players and a score.
The first time a guild is formed would entail a group of really wealthy players buying a guildHQ and putting it on a 'lot' somewhere. One of the rooms/maps of the guildHQ is the room where the guild oracle (flame, grimoire, crystal ball?) is. The oracle room would also be accessable to guild founders and would have access to other founder's only areas (trophy cases and control room for initiations ) Any player with lots and lots of cash could buy a guildHQ but it would not be a guild (just a big house) but an actual guild is formed when the guild oracle is activated. It would take three players to activate the guild oracle and they would become the founders.
The guild oracle is actually like a message board of sorts where the founders can get a list of members, check their score, set passwords, remove members for the guild, promote members to founders... This would all be driven by the guild object which would store the guild members and other useful information (like the founder list, guild name, password).
Players would only be allowed to be in one guild at a time and this information would be in a player force inserted into the player when they are initiated into the guild. Players would be initiated into the guild by being brought into the 'initiation room' and sitting in a chair while a founder thows a switch (fireworks, inserts this guild force,removes any other guild force...) The guild force would do stuff like allow access to guild only areas, be used to assign points to the guild for special quests maybe, collect dues perhaps.
A guild could only have one HQ, but there could be 'branch' guildhalls available for purchase which contained portals back to the HQ (a good way to make portals between towns and incentive to build more guild halls). The templates for a guild would be a bit more complex than normal houses because there would be three types of area to access, password access for more general areas where it would be possible to have guests and initiates, guild member access for guild members only, and founder access for the HQ functions.
There would also be some postings of the guild ratings in some places. I can see guilds getting points for the number of members, the number of branches or maybe even certain quests done by guild members.
Of course like houses, when the last founder quits the guild - the guild is recycled.
This I did some intiial work on using the python plugin (like making a guild 'bank' to store players names and founders and the initiation room where the player force is inserted admist lighting bolts and fire) but now I'm thinking of doing it over in the main server code - probably not really hard to do unless you are new to it like I am.
TEMPLES
Somewhat more simple than the guilds (ok, a lot simpler), I can see temples as another special type of building. In this case when you buy the blueprint and place it on a lot your religion is checked and a temple is put down for your god in your name witha nice plaque or whatever.. This would be a good way to bleed money from higher level players to encourage them to sperad the faith and promote their name. It could also be handy for spreading healing and altars around the world maps. There could be shrines, temples and cathedrals availabe for unreasonable prices. These wouldn't have unique flooring perhaps, but if the builder quits they couls be cleaned up as well.
Anyway - there is my thoughts on this based on a year of fiddling, pondering, little progress but lots of learning. I bet you are sorry you brought it up eh? If anyone wants to see the templates I can make them available, they are mostly functional (but without the templating system to instantiate them as actual linked maps) but with many 'quests' not assigned (things like setting the price of 20 beholder tongues for a jewlers bench cauldren...)