[Topic Split] Goal of simplicity? - no: avoiding complexity

[Mith]

just another data point to consider. Battle for wesnoth (arguably crossfire's closest 'competitor') have migrated their wiki recently, they chose mediawiki.

their design is actually pretty different looking compared to the classic mediawiki look, http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/HomePage

if anyone knows the wesnoth developers, it might be worthwhile to ask them about the decision they made (the alternitives they considered and rejected, and why).

I was there when i was not here
For some reason i cant access their forum anymore, so i cannot ask why they chose mediawiki

By the way, I think Wesnoth has a much larger user base. The game is attractive, mostly because it is easy to learn, has a very simple UI and still offers quite some challenges. KISS is the keyword, and if you'd ask me, i think CF could use some KISS too.

Maybe i should start some discussion on the mailing list...

[Aaron]

i sense a topic split...

but i think the reason that crossfire doesnt use KISS is it doesnt want to attract that type of users. somehow i get the feeling that its drawing in more older/mature players who like(d) nethack or D&D, and can deal with 2d. it also seems to get rid of all the n00bs who like to scream in 1337...

[Rednaxela]

Arguably, the fact that crossfire repels some crouds, could in some ways be considered a good thing. Also, Crossfire is rather KISS compared to nethack and the like, for one thing crossfire is "apply does all", whereas nethack has a giant amount of different commands to use objects.

[Mith]

i sense a topic split...

but i think the reason that crossfire doesnt use KISS is it doesnt want to attract that type of users. somehow i get the feeling that its drawing in more older/mature players who like(d) nethack or D&D, and can deal with 2d. it also seems to get rid of all the n00bs who like to scream in 1337...

i feel the same split coming...

I think you should not confuse all KISS with some KISS. KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) is generally a good idea for it usually makes things easy to learn, to code, to maintain etc.

Of course, CF UI cannot become as KISS as Wesnoth. that's impossilbe, the games differ too much Wesnoth is much more like WC2 than like nethack.

My feeling about CF is that it is complex. It is hard to learn even the basics. And that's no good. Not being able to grasp the basics turns players away. Given that, i think it is a good thing to extend the newbie-area such that they know much more before they enter the 'real world'
If the game was more KISS, new players would find it easier to learn the game. Not that i think the game should be changed and make easier to grasp, that would be a waste of resources. So I don't advocate recoding everyting, but i do advocate to keep KISS in mind when adding new features (like dynamic skills)
For sure there would be things on wishlists that certainly not KISS-compatible, for example the discussion about limiting WoR to regions is a not so very intelligible idea for most players. I imagine them walking from Scorn to Navar and then being lost. They recall and find themself on a third location

Resuming, i dont think features added should be judged on how nice they sound but on how easy they are to understand.

[Aaron]

what about a sandboxed newbie town for low level people, that keeps high level people out, and makes it easy to learn the basics. also some features arent going to be KISS or else they will be useless, cause they are to simple to do complex things... needs to be a balance somewhere.

so point out what you think needs work on to simplify, and we'll give you all the ideas you need...

[cavesomething]

what about a sandboxed newbie town for low level people, that keeps high level people out, and makes it easy to learn the basics.

This is the point of the 'port joesph' thread I started.

also some features arent going to be KISS or else they will be useless, cause they are to simple to do complex things... needs to be a balance somewhere.

I am not convinced that making everything simple is neccessary, merely making it consistant and documented is at least as importent.

One simple change to make here would be to cepy the player's handbook from the server source tree into the client one. I understand that it is generated from the server code, at least in part, but the output postscript file (incidentally, a pdf file is probably a more accesible choice nowadays, even if it is an inferior format) could be in the client source (and hence included with the client binaries on various platforms) so that players don't need to look at a website to read how to play the game, but can easily find something that they can read, and maybe even print to have next to them as they play.