The Stifling on Chat is killing the game

[mrbrklyn]

I'm not going to go into any of the back and forth that has been going on, there are a few places I would comment on things but I don't think that will help take us forward.

In the interest of going forward:
Mrbrklyn: Would your concerns be alleviated if chat was on by default and the signs changed to say chat? (I believe the code grep only found one sign so it would be useful if we go forward here if you could help us with a list of of said signs)

If, I need to say that I had a couple of private emails with Leaf and I seem to have misunderstood the circumstances as they unfolder that day. Evidently, I missed Leafs request to not have spoilers through SHOUT, which is a normal policing action. I missed it altogether. Instead, I saw several tell messages which show up as read in the cfclient, and those messages where warnings from non-DM's, seemingly strange and new ones at that. In the CF client, you learn to somewhat filter out SHOUT discussions that are not pertaining directly to your play, unless you are sitting around and relaxing, jawing with people.

So I must apologize for reacting as I did, and to Leaf, it must have seemed completely irrational. I want to personally apologize to him and anyone else offended.

The underpinning of this, however, remains a problem with the current construction of chat, and perhaps need a secondary rule change. What woo is suggesting, and what I think is a minimumly needed change, which is that CHAT, if it intended to be the default channel for players to talk accross the board, needs to ne the default level on entering into the game. It has to be an opt out version. All this discussion has fired me you to write a GTK client again for Crossfile and a toogle button for chanels might be a nice added feature. In addition, all the manuals in City Hall and the Scorn signs need to be appropiatedly changed, and all the other places players learn about the game.

The current rules, and I was discussing this with Leaf just prior to the events, is encouraging hyper-activitiy by the DM's. But in addition, other player are jumping in and climbing on peoples backs. This has degraded the play of the game.

An addition change in the rules need to be made restricting warning and displinary messages, or rule explanations, to the DMs in their role with the WIZ tag in the name. We need to, IMO, also stop the piling on.

It has to be kept in mind that not every conflict and problem can be solved through rules and official actions. This is even more the reason for DMs to be judicious of their use of authority.

I really think that chat channel can solve the problem here, but your right there is going to be some confusion during the switch. While technically off topic conversation has never been allowed on shout (per the rules) it has often been more tolerated then it is now - and I'll admit that I'm more inclined to redirect a 'shouter to 'chat since chat now exits for that purpose.
I don't see this as being heavyhanded - but rather as the natural transition.

I disagree. This is not even the way the rules are currently written, which IMO are bad enough. Only certain conversation is supposedly to be restricted to chat. Expanding the interpretation and blanketing the board for a month is not a natural transaction, but forcing an unatural restriction on the board.

When you wear that DM hat, you have to understand that there are no easy conversations, no light discussions. Your the "Man", and that implies all the authority and power which demands respect, and which is naturally resented, especially by the under 30 crowd. When a rule has created a circumstance which a 6 players are running around harrassing players, the situation becomes insufferable.

Ruben

[mrbrklyn]

It seems we have to, because I have found that the mere second one player is given a "break" or "leniency" and a second player does not receive similar treatment, it is abuse of power and player favoritism.

IMO, this is not a better solution than the problem which is being professed it solves. The rules exist and can be enforced at any time. This is the way it is in the real world and it is a real legal principle. Lenency shown about the law is not an excuse for breaking the law nor does it restrict its enforcement of laws and regulations in the future. You can never go to court and complain that people A was allowed to tresspass a rule, and therefor, I was singled out and picked on. Unless you can show a pattern of activity which discriminates based on Race, Religion or Sex, it is a non-starter, from the get-go.

A rules happy administration by the DMs is a worse situation.

Ruben

[mrbrklyn]

<<Not true. You were asked not to use that shout channel for such matters/topics. You continued. You were warned about using the shout channel for such conversations. You continued. You were told to stop using the shout channel. You then opted to use language that is not allowed on the shout channel. You were then muzzled for the second time in three days.>>


This is a typical demonstration of what is wrong with this rule. Aren't the DMs getting tired of muzzling people? This rule caused

A) A player making an announcement on shout like they are a DM.

B) an intervention by a DM

C) An unecessary excalation in the tone and content of the conversation

D) A displinary action by the DM....

E) creates an uneasy, unfriendly feeling for the rest of the players on the board.

Nuh?

This problem needs an analysis beyound the correct action by DMs and players. It needs a rules change. This is complaining about catching flies when you lay out fly paper.

Ruben

[mrbrklyn]

How do you tell a group to use a channel that they dont know exsists where they wont hear you, and/or explain the rules on the channels they can listen to without flooding?

Why do you think or feel you have to do this?

The whole entire thread/rant was caused by one player acting like a DM when it came to rule enforcement and the other player believing they were a DM.

since the DMs wont do anything))

This 100% completey is correct. What is this, kindergarten? Let the DMs do the policing and the dirty work. They spend a lot of time thinking and working on this. Are you going to run out an make a citenzen arrest?

The information is there, if/when it is a problem for a player - a DM kindly points it out to the player the use of shout and chat, etc. It's when the player then turns around and refuses to cooperate that we have muzzles.

This is reaching this level of confrontation too frequently and without a good cause.

Ruben

[woo]

I disagree. This is not even the way the rules are currently written, which IMO are bad enough. Only certain conversation is supposedly to be restricted to chat. Expanding the interpretation and blanketing the board for a month is not a natural transaction, but forcing an unatural restriction on the board.

If you check the rules for shout/chat http://www.metalforge.net/rules/ , there is very, very limited usage for shout - all of the rest of this should be on chat now. What I meant was, before the existence of the chat channel things that were not permitted on shout were perhaps tolerated more then they are now. With the existence of the chat channel it's natural to start asking people to move it to chat. (And yes, potential muzzling if they won't)

This is not "expanding the interpretation and blanketing the board". As you said just because person A doesn't get the full punishment for breaking the rules (using shout incorrectly) doesn't mean you can complain when you are given the full punishment (muzzle).

I'm afraid we are slipping backwards again though - so in the interst of moving forward again, lets try to only deal with what we think needs to come out of this. To that end it seems we want:
*chat to be on by default (we can leave opt in/opt out discussions to another time as that will only complicate this I believe)

So far, this is the onlything I've seen out of this thread that we need to keep going forward (obviously unless I've missed something).
Anything else?

[mrbrklyn]

I disagree. This is not even the way the rules are currently written, which IMO are bad enough. Only certain conversation is supposedly to be restricted to chat. Expanding the interpretation and blanketing the board for a month is not a natural transaction, but forcing an unatural restriction on the board.

If you check the rules for shout/chat http://www.metalforge.net/rules/ , there is very, very limited usage for shout - all of the rest of this should be on chat now. What I meant was, before the existence of the chat channel things that were not permitted on shout were perhaps tolerated more then they are now. With the existence of the chat channel it's natural to start asking people to move it to chat. (And yes, potential muzzling if they won't)

Comment: The difference between Shout and Chat channels is this: Only Crossfire related topics or emergency/help requests should be used on the Shout channel; out-of-game topics and general discussion on the Chat channel. One can toggle (on or off) the chat channel by adjusting their listen level: 'listen 10 to "see" the chat channel, 'listen 9 to "hide" the chat channel.

So at least in my case, I was asking for a spoiler, or at leaste assurance, on a quest, so this is on topic according even to the rules.

The request for a spoiler, of course, made the DM to ask to take it to chat, although really, once we moved into real spoiler territory, it needed to be taken into tell, which is what normally happens.

In this case, and others, immediately I got about 5 tell messages about the rules for chat. That was really upsetting.

I'm afraid we are slipping backwards again though - so in the interst of moving forward again, lets try to only deal with what we think needs to come out of this. To that end it seems we want:
*chat to be on by default (we can leave opt in/opt out discussions to another time as that will only complicate this I believe)

So far, this is the onlything I've seen out of this thread that we need to keep going forward (obviously unless I've missed something).
Anything else?

To the degree that this illustrates the nature of the problem, and not a continual whining, I agree with you. And in this regard, and to try to solve this problem, chat should be by default the setting with the docs changed, and we need a formalization in the rules about correcting other players to prevent 'piling on' by the players on the board. Anything that helps keep things cool and improved the friendliness of the game to players, especially newbies, would be most apreciated.

There is also this issue of me being still banned from metalforge, but I'll handle that privately in time and I'll either be reinstated or not.

Meanwhile, everyone should have a good evening.

Ruben

[woo]

Alright, we (DM's) are working on a clearer version of the rules on chat/shout to help be prevent this - the general idea being do not use shout other then emergency call for DM's. Once we get that in place that should help clarify things.

When you refer to "piling on" do you mean other players sending you the rules and telling you not to use shout? I believe this is covered under not pretending to be a DM which is what helped this situation arise in the first place.

Yes take the ban up with leaf - that's not within my power sphere

[Avion]

Alright, we (DM's) are working on a clearer version of the rules on chat/shout to help be prevent this - the general idea being do not use shout other then emergency call for DM's. Once we get that in place that should help clarify things.

Hmm, now that may be taking it too far - shout should be available for people to shout out greetings, and ask for help from other players or otherwise getting attention in a legitimate manner - so long as it is a "shout", not a conversation. It is just the conversations and inappropriate comments which should be stopped.

Something like:

Help, I'm stuck in the temple of fire!
Big party at Weathertop gardens!
I'm there!
Hey Sancho!
How do I open doors?
Hello Newbie Joe.
Need 2 more people to do "BigDungeon"! Hurry- we're leaving soon
Help, I need a DM!

but not:

Hey, I got just a +3 orc tickler
That's nothing, I have a +4
oh yah - where did you get it?
In the orc testing grounds the password is poopydo
I'll be right over
Hey, Sancho, what did you eat for supper last night
i AM rULeBreAKER CoOl - DMs are LAMeRz!
Now I am fighting some knolls!
Watch out for the big gnoll in the corner
Thanks!
Frenchfries and apple juice
Stop hitting me you A**, Hey guys my sister won't stop hitting me.
Stop hitting me!!!
We are in the same party but let's shout to each other ok
Cool
Watch out, on your right!

Anyone who has the brains to play crossfire should be able to make that distinction I would think. If not then, well it ain't a democracy or even a paid service so they should get muzzled until they learn better.

[Guest]

Anyone who has the brains to play crossfire should be able to make that distinction I would think. If not then, well it ain't a democracy or even a paid service so they should get muzzled until they learn better.

Muzzling people until they learn better is not a solution to any problem. Its a form of abuse and harrasment.

[Guest]

Also on Metalforge there is no chat channel awareness untill it is to late. The rest is hidden in the Message of the Day, which i really cant read every day for changes. )

The chat channel info has been up there for at least a couple of weeks. The chat channel has been available for probably a month or more.

[/quote]

Ohhhh

And it was loved so much that the DMs got together and decided to hurd all the users to it whether they liked it or not!

Good Work DMs! 2+ points!

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