Crossfire Forum

Mith wrote:I don't think your argument makes much sense Cavesomething. How does a creature without hands wear stuff? And how does a glowing fireball wear rings?

It doesn't, the body of the creature (which is fairly small, spherical and constantly surrounded by flames) has a permeable membrane, allowing it to store items inside of its bulk. Within that, there is another small section where a limited number of amulets and rings can fit where the magical energy bound to them can be absorbed directly, manifesting itself throughout the fireborn's body.

Mith wrote: Since you would still allow this, why not allow it karate?
Anyway, if you really think this should change, why not change the skill name in 'mental kicking' or 'telepathy'

I particulary like the second, it does even explain how a fireborn carries along the stuff he has.

This also would be an adequate explaination.

Mith wrote: Do not forbid a fireborn and a dragon to become monk, rather make other classes as well, classes that would only fit them.
For example: mediator:
The mediator is someone that devotes his whole life to reach into the spiritual world. Usually he just sits down on his favourite meditation location, therefore his physical strength is not much and so he's not able to wear armour or use weapons. This usually is not much of a problem, since he usually is peaceful in nature.
Nevertheless, if the anger of a mediator is awoken, he makes a dangerous enemy, able to cast powerful spells, to control his environment with mental powers alone and to release the wrath of the gods on whoever thought to find an easy prey."

This sounds like an excuse to make even more powerful fireborn classes, when the real answer would be to make fireborn more powerful in general and remove the one overpowered class (besides which, choosing between too many classes is confusing, the optimum number of choices to have in any one decision is 3 (actually e, but you can't do that in real life))

cavesomething wrote:This sounds like an excuse to make even more powerful fireborn classes, when the real answer would be to make fireborn more powerful in general and remove the one overpowered class (besides which, choosing between too many classes is confusing, the optimum number of choices to have in any one decision is 3 (actually e, but you can't do that in real life))

It is not even an excuse. It is not about creating 'still' more powerfull classes.
It seems to me that your only way to 'fix' (note the '') things that 'seems' to be overpowered by reducing their power, while the real answer would be to make other things stronger as well, or add other options.
Not only it is reducing the thing in power, but it even involves stripping off anyting that makes it (the fireborn) special.

The problem with fireborns/dragons choosing monk is not that monk is overpowered, but that all other classes have literally NO profits for them. The way to fix this 'problem' is of course not to change (let alone remove) the monk (for it fits his purpose well) but to add more options that does make sense for a dragon or a fireborn (only).
These options does not have (necessarily) the meditation skill, but they do need some skill(s) that give them an advantage for not being able to wear armour, weapons (etc in case of the fireborn).

The idea to remove monk, reduce the fire resistance of a fireborn and then to make fireborn stronger is just senseless
this would in fact reduce the differences between races even further which is a BAD thing to do.
I would rather go for more diversity and therefore keep the fireborn in it's existing form, including the possibility to choose monk (or even more adapted classes). Not only this, but I also advocate to differ existing classes (and races as well) to create a more diversing, more challenging game where not all players but a few end up doing the same.
In fact, I wouldn't mind to remove at least 4 out of the 8 (in the end) identical humanoid races and add for example the race 'elemental' and the race 'Xorn'
Some classes should be available for ALL races, but some races should have specific classes as well. For example the 'elemental' race could have four unique classes (and maybe the elemental that chooses fire as it's class could become fireborn, though this is quite a different topic.)

A final note: though the words may look harsh, no bad feeligns are included, neither is a flame intented

Mith wrote: ... while the real answer would be to make other things stronger as well

I disagree.

Before the changes were made with the Partial Resistances and Enchant Armour scrolls (and maybe item power comes into play as well..) - every player beyond level 10 had an AC between -10 to -20some, and Armour of 90+. Because players were near impossible to hit, the "fix" was to give monsters more attack types, more spells, more powerful attack types, more powerful spells. Any player who did not have this resistances or protection would get nearly instantly slayed by many, many monsters. You see where that has gotten us.

The game was headed towards "munchkin-ism"

Now, there's the fine line of what to change next - slow the game down, decrease monster power (spell abilities, attacks - damage or rate of damage, etc.), something else , and so on.

well, what about moving the current monsters up in levels, and adding more of them? so the lower levels end up fightning things just a bit harder than them, and the middle levels can still find reasonable monsters in middle elvel maps?

that would seem to solve a hell of a lot of problems...

Aaron wrote:well, what about moving the current monsters up in levels, and adding more of them?.

Need graphics.

Otherwise, you stumble upon a hoard of goblin shaman, goblin warlocks, goblin berzerkers, goblin warriors, etc. and they all look like this:



Which is which, or who is who?

Leaf wrote:

Mith wrote: ... while the real answer would be to make other things stronger as well

I disagree.

Before the changes were made with the Partial Resistances and Enchant Armour scrolls (and maybe item power comes into play as well..) - every player beyond level 10 had an AC between -10 to -20some, and Armour of 90+. Because players were near impossible to hit, the "fix" was to give monsters more attack types, more spells, more powerful attack types, more powerful spells. Any player who did not have this resistances or protection would get nearly instantly slayed by many, many monsters. You see where that has gotten us.

The game was headed towards "munchkin-ism"

Now, there's the fine line of what to change next - slow the game down, decrease monster power (spell abilities, attacks - damage or rate of damage, etc.), something else , and so on.

I'm afraid this is a little beside the point. I'm not saying that players should become stronger, but that, if a monk seems overpowered, this should not be fixed by reducing or removing the monk, but rather by making other classes more attractive.

With respect to the fireborn's +100 fire, this is not even close to compensation for all it's disadvantages. (weak, low con, no weapons,armour --> no bonusses, enchantments or resistances)

Besides, the meditation skill is somewhat usefull, but one should not overestimate it (which is easily done)

From my experience, for a lvl 110 fireborn easy things for a lvl 50 humanoid are a great challenge. That would evade once cave*'s changes for that fireborn are made, and they would be more of the same. that simply should not happen imnho

Mith wrote: With respect to the fireborn's +100 fire, this is not even close to compensation for all it's disadvantages. (weak, low con, no weapons,armour --> no bonusses, enchantments or resistances)

I have a different opinion.

Weak?
Overall, they get a net change of +10 in ability bonuses. They start out with a glowing crystal for spell point storage, for free. They start out with 100% resistance to poison, too.

Low con?
They get +0 stat modifier (along with humans) to their Con; elf, wraith and gnome all have penalties.

Armour does have benefits (stat bonuses & enchantments) but also has drawbacks in that it decides your max speed, spell failure and spell point regen penalties. Meaning, armour in itself is an advantage and disadvantage.

Bonuses & Enchantments:

They can wear 4 rings and 2 amulets.

Leaf wrote: Now, there's the fine line of what to change next - slow the game down, decrease monster power (spell abilities, attacks - damage or rate of damage, etc.), something else , and so on.

Clearly it is slow the game down. (or rather, slow down attack speeds and spell damage rates). That way, getting surrounded actually matters. If you are fighting a monster a little weaker than yourself, currently you will easily kill it and take no damage, getting surrounded then doesn't matter, since all you need to do is run, and in 3 ticks you will be well away from them.

Now instead, make the attack speed be attacks per second instead of attacks per tick. Suddenly, if you are surrounded, it could be 2-4 seconds before you are free again, in which time lots of monsters get to attack you, even if you are slightly faster than them. With a similar reduction in regen speed, you couldn't just plow through a room knowing you will regain hitpoints almost as fast as you take damage.

Leaf wrote:

Mith wrote: With respect to the fireborn's +100 fire, this is not even close to compensation for all it's disadvantages. (weak, low con, no weapons,armour --> no bonusses, enchantments or resistances)

I have a different opinion.

Weak?
Overall, they get a net change of +10 in ability bonuses. They start out with a glowing crystal for spell point storage, for free. They start out with 100% resistance to poison, too.

Yes, weak. Max natural str is 15. That's what I call weak.
If that glowing crystal is a problem... give other races a speciality as well. Other classes have armour and weapons to survive (and they usually dont even need it). A fireborn needs mana to survive. Without glowing crystal it would be nowhere.
+100 poison is indeed a good thing to have for low lvl players. Soon as guh/restoration is available, it is pretty useless

leaf wrote: Low con?
They get +0 stat modifier (along with humans) to their Con; elf, wraith and gnome all have penalties.

Yes, low con. They can't even wear a girdle of constitution. In fact they cannot wear anything but a few rings to improve their constitution.

leaf wrote: Armour does have benefits (stat bonuses & enchantments) but also has drawbacks in that it decides your max speed, spell failure and spell point regen penalties. Meaning, armour in itself is an advantage and disadvantage.

A humanoid can choose to get rid of his armour, or pick armour that doesnt give speed limits (Midnight robe, enchanted Gale Armour)
A humanoid can get str and dex at 30 while using a weapon and perhaps a ring of War, then applying Idaten Boots and gale armour (or WDSM) his speed becomes > 6 (or 4)
Now try this with a fireborn... he'll need 4 rings of war or rings of thieves.
A fireborn simply is slow compared to higher lvl humanoids

leaf wrote: Bonuses & Enchantments:
They can wear 4 rings and 2 amulets.

Humanoid players can wear 2 rings, an amulet, armour, helmet, shield, bracers, girdle, cloak, weapon, shoes
resistances usually come with weapons (e.g. lava slasher), armour (WDSM, Dragon Scale mail of Ruggilli, ...), shields (WDS, Fire shield, belzebub shield), cloaks (cloak of the underworld, cloak of gorokh, oilskin cloak, ...) bracers (ancient bracer of dexterity) and none of them is available for a fireborn.
To have +50 acid he needs two rings. To get some resistance against cold, 2 more rings. bye bye slots.

for a low lvl fireborn you're totally right but... there's more than just low lvl players. At higher lvl, a fireborn cannot wield weapons, so it cannot wield enchanted weapons. A +10 stat bonus for a good weapon is not quite uncommon, the same applies for armour: Girdle of the Firegod gives +6, quite some helmets do give nice bonusses (KOG, helmet of might, wizard hat)
For +100 against confusion, a fireborn needs an other amulet (or Lythander), a humanoid simply applies jack boots. Same for reflect missiles/spells

A fireborn perhaps gives a good start (though melee skills are much easier to train than magic skills) thanks to its glowing crystal and a nice ac, but at higher lvl's it has an incredible drawback, which is not even close to compensated by +100 fire and +100 poison.

stat bonusses. Sure there are quite some good rings, but they all have +50 item power. That means only two rings for a high lvl fireborn, and perhaps a single amulet.
For a humanoid player it is easy to have at least +30 stat bonusses, for a fireborn this is almost impossible.

so I conclude: although a fireborn has a good resistance (+100 fire) and has a nice start equipment (which it really needs to survive) he's seriously weaker than humanoid players.
Not that this is a bad thing. It gives quite a different, and (perhaps) more interesting way of playing the game, but it shouldnt be made less powerfull just because it is in some small aspect stronger than others. Neither should it be made more like humanoid players by making it stronger in other aspects and weaker in the aspect it is strong now.

Mith wrote: +100 poison is indeed a good thing to have for low lvl players. Soon as guh/restoration is available, it is pretty useless

This illustrates a problem with restoration/GUH, rather than anything else.

Mith wrote: Yes, low con. They can't even wear a girdle of constitution. In fact they cannot wear anything but a few rings to improve their constitution.

This certainly does not make them worse than elves.

Mith wrote: A humanoid can get str and dex at 30 while using a weapon and perhaps a ring of War, then applying Idaten Boots and gale armour (or WDSM) his speed becomes > 6 (or 4)
Now try this with a fireborn... he'll need 4 rings of war or rings of thieves.
A fireborn simply is slow compared to higher lvl humanoids

this ties into the argument for slowing the game down wonderfully.

Mith wrote: To have +50 acid he needs two rings. To get some resistance against cold, 2 more rings. bye bye slots.

The 50% safety from acid thing is something I dislike. I would much rather a cumulative effect moderated by resistance (as I described on #crossfire before).

Mith wrote: For +100 against confusion, a fireborn needs an other amulet (or Lythander), a humanoid simply applies jack boots. Same for reflect missiles/spells

/me dislikes +100% resistances on principle.

Mith wrote: For a humanoid player it is easy to have at least +30 stat bonusses, for a fireborn this is almost impossible.

This is an issue with how stat points are calculated, currently the advantage of having 29 vs 30 is too high. I'd like to see the upper limit uncapped (or capped to 127 so it doesn't roll over) with a decreasing benefit to each additional stat point.

Mith wrote: so I conclude: although a fireborn has a good resistance (+100 fire) and has a nice start equipment (which it really needs to survive) he's seriously weaker than humanoid players.

That is a point that falls apart once they start meteor spamming.

Mith wrote: Not that this is a bad thing. It gives quite a different, and (perhaps) more interesting way of playing the game, but it shouldnt be made less powerfull just because it is in some small aspect stronger than others. Neither should it be made more like humanoid players by making it stronger in other aspects and weaker in the aspect it is strong now.

concurred, I want to make fireborns /less/ like humanoids by stopping them using monks that give a humanoid-like attack.