For worldmappers: You _must_ set elevation on worldmapground

[Avion]

Yes the script was for patching holes in existing maps - not assigning elevation to large areas. It is not smart but better than leaving holes in the maps.

There is a long discussion on the mailing list archive on the best way to deal with elevation - including much talk on just simplifying the weather code (it is a game not a weather simulation).
Personally I like the idea of having a elevation value for the map and then having that elevation modifyed by the arches. For example the map is elevation 10000 but a sea square on the map is between 9501 and 9901 while a mountain would be 15001 to 19000. Simplistic, But not as simplistic as the current scheme. Another option would be either elevation arches which the map editors would preserve (and genetate) or storing the elevation in a seperate file and genertaing it offline like the arches.

IN any case the existing weather code and existing elevation scheme is a problem.

[Avion]

My understanding of python is somewhere close to non-existant, so I stuggle to follow the execution path through that script.

If you pretend Python is Pseudo code then it's easier to read.

[cavesomething]

Yes the script was for patching holes in existing maps - not assigning elevation to large areas. It is not smart but better than leaving holes in the maps.

with the existing system it is quite elegant, it just seems to have ignored the weather code constraints.

There is a long discussion on the mailing list archive on the best way to deal with elevation - including much talk on just simplifying the weather code (it is a game not a weather simulation).

But I /like/ the weather code, it is one of the most interesting parts of the game. It needs to be balanced somewhat more I'll agree, but that is about all. As it is there are some very cool things that are starting to be done that could make great use of it, Rednaxela is doing a sophisticated lighting model, to have monster sight work properly. The weather code could tie in nicely with that to have the cloudiness of the world affect the amount of light.

At some point I want to build a little ecosystem modeller, so that plants and animals would grow and migrate on the world maps. Other game effects would be nice too, like snow causing small amounts of cold damage. (but after the elevation thing is dealt with, since scorn snows a lot currently).

IN any case the existing weather code and existing elevation scheme is a problem.

The elevation thing is a bit inflexible, which is why I would favour generating them from the terrain. (as I outlined previously), but the as far as the weathermap is concerned it shouldn't much matter.

A quick hack that could be done to the current elevmap:

change the bit I mentioned before to something like

Code: Select all

if (weathermap[x][y].avgelev < -10000)
		weathermap[x][y].avgelev = rndm(-1000, -100);
	    if (weathermap[x][y].avgelev > 15000)
		weathermap[x][y].avgelev = rndm(9000, 10000);

and it should act more sanely when there are extreme heights or depths. (I haven't tested this, and don't know whether this will produce desirable effects or not, but it is more logical).[/code]

[Rednaxela]

There is a long discussion on the mailing list archive on the best way to deal with elevation - including much talk on just simplifying the weather code (it is a game not a weather simulation).

But I /like/ the weather code, it is one of the most interesting parts of the game. It needs to be balanced somewhat more I'll agree, but that is about all. As it is there are some very cool things that are starting to be done that could make great use of it, Rednaxela is doing a sophisticated lighting model, to have monster sight work properly. The weather code could tie in nicely with that to have the cloudiness of the world affect the amount of light.

Weeee! mention of my nice plans for lighting patching (I should probably be able to get started after this week).

Anyways I think that though the weather take alot of processor power (compare various statictics of server load/memory useage between MF and Cat2 to see what I mean), but people should have a choice to use the advanced weather if they want, and making the elevation on worldmaps as accurate as possible should still be done for those people. Though the talk of simplifing the weather system has a point, I think that if it is done then there should be both that and the other weather system in the code at the same time, configureable by a file option

[Guest]

Avion: Wtf? Weather code is awsome... and you want to rip it out?!
Progress not regress.

... or maby Avion just want's to do it becuase he knows I run weather and want's to take that from me...

Red:
uptime
16:59:32 up 2 days, 23:17, 0 users, load average: 0.05, 0.07, 0.07

The weather code takes up almosr no CPU
I said that when I showed the stats before
1) Someone was running John (99% CPU)
2) Someone else was running freenet java sim (80-99% CPU).

[Rednaxela]

Avion: Wtf? Weather code is awsome... and you want to rip it out?!
Progress not regress.

Yeah. I think the only problem with weather code right now, is the fact that the elevation on worldmaps is'nt always being set sanely.

Red:
uptime
16:59:32 up 2 days, 23:17, 0 users, load average: 0.05, 0.07, 0.07

The weather code takes up almosr no CPU
I said that when I showed the stats before
1) Someone was running John (99% CPU)
2) Someone else was running freenet java sim (80-99% CPU).

Ah, that clears that up a bit, so yeah, weather code does'nt take much unlike I thought before (how much ram does it take I wonder though, that would likely be more significant than processor useage). I don't really see any reason to simplify the weather code now that I saw that. Perhaps a code cleanup would be nice, but I don't think it needs any changes in behavoir except to fix the problems of worldmap elevation not always being sanely set.

Anyways I agree with cavesomething, the current weather model would pair nicely with my lighting improvement I'm making soon, and it woudl also pair quite nicely with cave's ecosystem plans. Yes the current current weather system is overly extravigant for what it affects, but it just need more effects and similarly advanced things like cave said. (btw. does the current weather code impliment seasons? If not, then that would make the weather code more pointful. unless we assume that bigworld's magnetic and real poles are on the same place.) Weather code could also be made more useful if bigworld was changed to full globe and wrap around, though more continents should be added to make that work well.

[Avion]

Avion: Wtf? Weather code is awsome... and you want to rip it out?!
Progress not regress.

... or maby Avion just want's to do it becuase he knows I run weather and want's to take that from me...

I would like to rip out something... but not the weather code. I actually know the fellow who wrote the weather code and even worked on it a tiny bit. My problem with it is that I don't see a need to have it crunch so much data - I think you could get much the same effect with much less elevation info, or at least elevation info that is easier to manage. The way it is now the elevation data is creating a lot of garbage input and there is no good way to deal with it - lots of entropy going in as the maps diverge from the original elevation data. Also no good way to create elevation for alternate world maps.
Anyway as I said there is a lot of discussion in the mail archives about these ideas and you would be wise to read it to see the ideas and concerns that others (including people who worked on both the weather code and the Javaeditor) have mentioned.

[cavesomething]

(btw. does the current weather code impliment seasons? If not, then that would make the weather code more pointful.

yes, it shifts the equator up and down by a fixed amount over time, so that what is at the equator changes with season.

Weather code could also be made more useful if bigworld was changed to full globe and wrap around, though more continents should be added to make that work well.

You do realise that if the left and right hand edges were to connect to each other that a cylinder would be formed and not a globe? Even worse, if the top and bottom edges were also connected, there would be a torus (doughnut shape).

Doing a proper globe is hard, you need, at least, to start playing with the tiling code to let multiple tiles tile across each other, and change the world maps so that vertical slices of the world are shaped correctly. (like this)

Code: Select all

 /\ 
/  \
|   |
\  /
 \/ 
(in a code block to make it look right).

these, if tiled horizontally would from a globe-ish thing, the current maps wouldn't. (most games cheat in this, most noticably the civilisation games, which normally makes the northern civs too powerful).

[Rednaxela]

Weather code could also be made more useful if bigworld was changed to full globe and wrap around, though more continents should be added to make that work well.

You do realise that if the left and right hand edges were to connect to each other that a cylinder would be formed and not a globe? Even worse, if the top and bottom edges were also connected, there would be a torus (doughnut shape).

Doing a proper globe is hard, you need, at least, to start playing with the tiling code to let multiple tiles tile across each other, and change the world maps so that vertical slices of the world are shaped correctly. (like this)

Code: Select all

 /\ 
/  \
|   |
\  /
 \/ 
(in a code block to make it look right).

these, if tiled horizontally would from a globe-ish thing, the current maps wouldn't. (most games cheat in this, most noticably the civilisation games, which normally makes the northern civs too powerful).

I do realise that it would be VERY difficult, but I should be possible. but it would require MAJOR changes to the whole of bigworld, therefore making it very difficult...
Cheating like many games do and only going horizontally would actually be rather easy though, and has no real disadvantages, as all it will do with the current maps is make the weather slightly more realistic.

[mikeeusa22]

In the middle ages and before the world was flat...
As is bigworld