Alchemy (skill?) and item fatique [topic split]

[Casper]

So now, I ask to seasoned players their opinion about the fatigue idea:
- Do you think it is an acceptable solution ?

Yes, this is a good idea that has been proposed before (wear and tear or armour, weapons, and other equipment), as long as there is some fixing skill/shop that for a fee would allow the player to fix an item.

Temporary cauldron fatigue seems reasonable, but in game terms it is not needed if there is player fatigue.

- If not, what are the possible issues you see ?

Even with temp cauldron fatigue:

1). Start 25 alchemists named, train them up a bit
Casp_alch-1
Casp_alch-2
...
Casp_alch-24
Casp_alch-25

Start 20 dragons named
Casp_cau-1
Casp_cau-2
...
Casp_cau-19
Casp_cau-20

Start 25 summoners named
Casp_wat-1
Casp_wat-2
..
Casp_wat-24
Casp_wat-25

Start summoner named
Casp_food

Start dragon named Casp_get

2).
Set up a 2D cauldron array of 26x20 cauldrons

2 squares North of cauldrons place a row of Casp_wat summoners looking South, set to cast forward water until hungry, then move south, until there is food under them, get food, eat food, move north, return to casting.

1 square North of first row of cauldrons place the Casp_alch group,
set to
loop
-get food, eat, get ingredients, move south
-while above cauldron
--make water of the wise, get results, move south
-drop all, move north until there is food under

1 square East of the cauldrons make a column of Cas_cau group, who replace cauldrons for the row every n minutes (using similar algorithms that alchemists use).

1 square north and 1 east place the Casp_food summoner, who goes around replenishing food supplies of the workers.

1 square south of the cauldrons place the Cas_get worker, who is set to collect results, deliver them to one place, and sort them into piles.

Given sufficient cauldrons for input the factory will produce large amounts of water of the wise indefinately (or until the machine hosting over 70 CF clients goes down). Having not tried this I don't know how this can be optimised (for example have one dragon replace all the cauldrons).


Summary:
It seems with enough workers to overcome worker fatigue, and enough cauldrons to overcome cauldron fatigue the problem returns. If the player can work out where to get an indefinate supply of cauldrons the player works out how to make almost infinate amunt of money alsmot instaintly.

[Lauwenmark]

Summary:
It seems with enough workers to overcome worker fatigue, and enough cauldrons to overcome cauldron fatigue the problem returns. If the player can work out where to get an indefinate supply of cauldrons the player works out how to make almost infinate amunt of money alsmot instaintly.

True - but in that case, it requires much more efforts to get to the same point. Such mechanisms could also be prevented by preventing more than X simultaneous connections from the same IP, with X high enough so people possibly playing behind a masquerading router/firewall wouldn't be harmed, but low enough to be unable to overcome the effects of fatigue.

Now, it still leaves room for several players to associate and create some kind of industrial process. But I think this would be a little bit harder than what was possible so far, so it would probably not be as frequent and much less of a nuisance. DMs would probably suffice to regulate such extreme cases.

Now, *if* the problem persists even with such constraints, then I see only one solution: forbid practice of magical arts in private areas, or remove 100% private areas. That way, robbers and other opponents could take benefit of the lack of reaction of the "bots" to steal their production, their cauldrons or simply disturb the process. Sounds too extreme ? It definitely is - but so are scenarii like the one Casper described.

[Azriel]

Let's make a trade union to defend the rights of the workers !

And i hope you don't hire children...

[Mith]

whoah! the discussion becomes a little messy

actually, there are two discussions going on:
- dynamic alchemy (to make alchemy more interesting)
- the fatigue idea (to prevent scripting/scripting like things)

about dynamic alchemy: lot has been said, much more is still undiscovered I need a few more days for my study, then i'll write some mail to the cf-dev list.

about the fatigue idea, i wont even mention it in the posting i'll do to cf-dev

the fatigue idea has been mentioned in a more or less different form in this topic: http://www.metalforge.net/cfmb/viewtopic.php?t=778

To me, it seems more reasonable to add some fatigue to the player itself - not just restricted to alchemy. But then, i would suggest to have a measure for physical fittnes, and one for mental fittnes.

Doing a TC with weapons would reduce physical fittnes, and using spells would have some inpact on mental fittnes (how much depends on the spell used, i can imagine charming is harder than dragonbreath)

Both types of fittnes has some influence on each other, if one of them drops below some limit, you start failing things belonging to the other type (just like real life), though physical action is good when you're mentally tired - who volunteers to run from scorn to navar and back?

By the way, i forsee problems when coffee is used to regain fittnes (create food anyone?)

Actually, most reasonable would be to add fatigue to both player and cauldron.
A player should have enough fittnes for regular use of an hour (or 2) alchemy followed by 4 hours fighting, or he should be able to regain fittnes rather easy. (come on... dont stop us playing a whole day! - wont be that bad actually...)
The first fatigue is to prevent players from switching cauldrons and doing alchemy all night, the second is to prevent scripters from doing alchemy longer than a certain time (30 mins for a cauldron seems good to me)

adding fatigue to a cauldron also adds the interesting possibility of a quest for a magic cauldron that has (almost) no fatigue effects.

[Rednaxela]

adding fatigue to a cauldron also adds the interesting possibility of a quest for a magic cauldron that has (almost) no fatigue effects.

However one must be careful to make such a magic cauldron still effected enough to prevent scripting (or then again, if the cauldron is rare enough (perhaps making the quest limited to one completion per player and making it require at least lvl 30 to complete), then that and the alchemist fatigue may be enough to stop scripting)

[Aaron]

I will volenteer to be a stay at home alchemist. But i think there should be a map in all of the towns that is a collection of shops, so players can rent a store for themsleves to sell there goods in.

Even though i would become a stay at home alchemist, i would rather be a traveling jack of all trades adventurer. Mostly a quester who uses alchemy and smithery to gain money to buy an odd item or repair/make equipment.

But if someone adds a shop in scorn, i wil set up an alchemy shop on the metalforge server.

I would also make more recipies that are interesting, and easier to complete, but sell for less. Philosical Oil is nice to get money for the other coponents, but its really freaking boring. I would rather enchant daggers and sell them form 50 platinum instead of making 5000 phil oil to buy new cauldrons to replace the ones ive ruined out of sheer boredom.

[Zephyrus]

A note. You must still leave in some way to get to a decent level in alchemy. In the time a standard fighter player can go TC crazy and get to lv 110, an alchemist character should be able to get, say 30 in alchemy. The philosophical oil recipie should be at least self sustaining, and profitable enough that you can pay for your cauldrons and mineral oil with it. If you want the shop to start paying less, make sure the price bottoms out. Alchemy shouldn't be something you have to put infinite loads of plat into, as that would force one into some sort of fighter niche, to at least begin if not sustain their role. Of course, you need to buy a scroll and cauldron, but beyond that, you should get platinum out of it. Also, you must somehow create player demand. Players should always be in need of items and services of an alchemist. Finally, most alchemists are afraid of the wilderness. Their exp takes often months to get, and losing it is too much. Please make it so it can be used. Finally, there are plenty of easier ways to millions of platinum, and while I don't know them, I'm sure they exist and require no creation skills.