"Dynamic Alchemy" [topic split]

[Mith]

Got your point.

The idea i had in mind would require a rewriten alchemy i suppose.
Anyway, i would like 'dynamicalchemy' added to the existing 'static alchemy'. (where 'static alchemy' is reproducable at some success rate, and 'dynamic alchemy' is more or less a quantum mechanic process)

Let me elaborate 'dynamic alchemy':
it would require
- high lvl alchemy skill
- rare ingredients like rare rings/amulets, rare food, ...- items you only can find 'somewhere in the world' or high lvl alchemy products, so you _have_ to risk your life - or at least: someones life
- an enchanted cauldron (+2 at least, higher is better results)

it wont have plain formulae
- there is a base recipe, more or less like 'static alchemy' with more or less equall items
- to create really powerfull stuff, you need to add 'things'.
- the recipe would not just require high lvl alchemy skill, it should also have a random change of 'failure'
- failures are defined as: not giving the intented result
- the 'not intened result' is one of (for example) the following: [other 'dynamic alchemy' artifacts; artifacts; other items; uncontrolled mana; evil masters; other monsters; nothing happened; some ingredients disappeared; all ingredients vanished; random teleportations; ...]
- items thus created are marked as start_equipment
- success rates (at a lvl 'static alchemy' gives 100% success rate): 'intented result' around 40%; other 'dymanic alchemy' items around 30% other results: 30%

If you know the base formula, you're ready to try and try again with different additions. (as listed above)

Just the base formula wont give you really powerfull stuff, though if you add some ingredients, you can find surprising results

what ingredients to add?
A good guess would be a fragment of chaos to add chaos resistance (where resistance is defined as: +90 for attack stuff; +100 for other stuff)
celestial fire to add fire resistance,
a frost hammer to add frost resistance,
troll stuff gives regeneration

then, two troll stuffs might give more regeneration, two fragments of chaos might give better resistance - who knows, even 100?

maybe addition of stats could be possible too. using stat potions to do this is a bad idea (too easy to get)

ok, thats enough for now - if not too much

[Casper]

- home made items are useless, because usually, when you are able to make the item of your dreams, you already have a better equipement

Some cases yes. But then again, I don't think we want players capable of crafting Midnight Robes.

Indeed! there could be more alchemy-only items though... and items that need 3-4 alchemy branches to be around lvl 50 to make and take several steps through intermediate alchemy-only items.

- to level in alchemy, you need to make some potions, or identify some. When looking in the 'formulae' list in CVS, you see that the most simple formulae rewards you with 1000xp, and to be sure to brew it (according to my C understanding), you must be at least lvl 10 to have 100% success chance ! (you need 500000 xp to get top that lvl)y

The alchemy skill applies to more then just potions.. it also includes oils, dusts, and stones.

As for gaining experience in alchemy, it's actually quite simple (though tedious at times - dropping and remove ingredients from the cauldron). For instance, if you need 8 things of item X to make product Y - drop 64 of item X in the cauldron and use the alchemy skill - if you succeed (and using the xp numbers you provided..) you just gained 8000xp.

However it does take absolutely ages to get to lvl 100, and by that time you probably have found and colelcted a large enough colelction of the potions to never need more. That is an issue with the recipes file though, and not with the way alchemy works.

I think that almost nobody really uses alchemy because of that.

I disagree. I know for a fact that many players on cf.mf.net have used alchemy to build a massive fortune and get them listed in the top 20 hiscore list in a very short amount of time (less then 2 weeks..)

It's true!

To improve the use of alchemy and other skills,
- change the chance to get recipies

I'd say add more recipes, make alchemy deeper and make it possible to make more with it. Add variety as opposed to add easy ways of making enough money to do an interger overflow.

- change the xp reward for successful formulae, and how the success is calculated (now it is more or less (1+lvl)/(2*diff), so you need to be lvl 99 in alchemy to make (100% success) the potion of fire immu (diff = 50), whereas I costs only 500plat in shops, lvl/diff should be more accurate). I think that nobody will never try to reach lvl 99 in alchemy just to make the potion

Since I'm not certain how the current xp/reward calculation, I can't comment on this.

He is right, but, I say again, alchemy works fine. If anything about alchemy needs adjusting it is the formulae file (diff values for example). By the time one gets to level 100 alchemy fire immunity potions are abundant.

[Casper]

The idea i had in mind would require a rewriten alchemy i suppose.
Anyway, i would like 'dynamicalchemy' added to the existing 'static alchemy'. (where 'static alchemy' is reproducable at some success rate, and 'dynamic alchemy' is more or less a quantum mechanic process)

Yes, that does requires extending the alchemy codebase. I understand what you mean now, and that is an interesting idea.
It would also introduce new items into the game that have not existed before. If done properly instead of trying to abuse strange unintended features of the game I can see how this would extend the game. and give it more depth. However there are a few issues you would need to think over, like:
-When to stop increasing the bonuses (you really dont want super-items made by alchemy)
-What items exeactly give the bonuses (would you search for fire in the extra ingredients or rely on exeact item names and have a table of how much fire resistance any item would add)
-What to do with other items (if someone is attempting dynamic alchemy and put in an ingredient that is a furniture, do you burn for being stupid or give them a small lollie to encourage further experimentation)
-How it will be compatible with [or how it will replace] current alchemy (this I understand will work along side the current alchemy using the same cauldrons as alchemy. the code would need to tell which one you are trying to use. If taken seriously and someone decides to develop it, dynamic alchemy could completely replace traditional alchemy, given some discussions on game balance, debugging, and probably more discussion)
-Who will code it (all this talking is really nice, but unless there is someone willing to sit down and do it, it will not happen. In this case it will be either you, or someone you can find).

[Mith]

Yes, that does requires extending the alchemy codebase. I understand what you mean now, and that is an interesting idea.
It would also introduce new items into the game that have not existed before. If done properly instead of trying to abuse strange unintended features of the game I can see how this would extend the game. and give it more depth. However there are a few issues you would need to think over, like:

-When to stop increasing the bonuses (you really dont want super-items made by alchemy)

item power restrictions? add +5 item power for each increased bonus. this would make any armour/weapon unbearable soon enough

-What items exeactly give the bonuses (would you search for fire in the extra ingredients or rely on exeact item names and have a table of how much fire resistance any item would add)

rather have a range an item could add (dynamic is a key word)
i think its mostly a matter of game balance to decide what items should give what bonusses.

-What to do with other items (if someone is attempting dynamic alchemy and put in an ingredient that is a furniture, do you burn for being stupid or give them a small lollie to encourage further experimentation)

as long as the base ingredients are ok, why bother about the spiderweb inside the cauldron? it might affect the change any resistance is added (either positive or negative) or affect the resistance itself, or eventually revert the effect (for example: dont give fire but cold resistance)
Basically, an added tissue paper shouldnt (always) result in slag (or worse)

-How it will be compatible with [or how it will replace] current alchemy (this I understand will work along side the current alchemy using the same cauldrons as alchemy. the code would need to tell which one you are trying to use. If taken seriously and someone decides to develop it, dynamic alchemy could completely replace traditional alchemy, given some discussions on game balance, debugging, and probably more discussion)

for i have no understanding of the (alchemy) source, i cant elaborate this, i'm afraid... but i can do some suggestions

for dynamic alchemy uses some basis recipes, the alchemy code could work as it does now, and only if (a set of) the ingredients matches a 'dynamic alchemy' basic recipe, some dynamic alchemy routines should start running.
another way is to require some special ingredient to create dynamic recipes. this ingredient - name it a biodynamic root - should _only_ be used for dynamic alchemy. due to its nature, the biodynamic root contains both dynamic and magical powers, allowing strange things to happen.
(to me, it seems to be easy to check for a special ingredient)

-Who will code it (all this talking is really nice, but unless there is someone willing to sit down and do it, it will not happen. In this case it will be either you, or someone you can find).

Last, but not least...
It wont be me, i cant read - let alone write - a single line of code
I could think of some structures and the like - kind of meta-language - but the real work, i cant do.

[Casper]

It wont be me, i cant read - let alone write - a single line of code
I could think of some structures and the like - kind of meta-language - but the real work, i cant do.

That would be your #1 problem then. You could either:
1) Learn C
2) Find someone who does and is interested enough in your idea

This is a relatively common problem and historically solution 1) was the easier one. What you suggest does not require deep knowelege of the language, just some basic knowelege of main language constructs, types, some idea about pointers, and string manipulations.

If you have absolutely no intention if having anything to do with C you could post to crossfire devel-list with the suggestion, and then hang around on #crossfire trying to chat to developers, or get someone you know IRL interested.

[Mith]

It wont be me, i cant read - let alone write - a single line of code
I could think of some structures and the like - kind of meta-language - but the real work, i cant do.

That would be your #1 problem then. You could either:
1) Learn C
2) Find someone who does and is interested enough in your idea

This is a relatively common problem and historically solution 1) was the easier one. What you suggest does not require deep knowelege of the language, just some basic knowelege of main language constructs, types, some idea about pointers, and string manipulations.

well, i could try to assemble (not assembly!)a piece of crap, having some real coders start bugfixing... but then i need a "hello world" tutorial to start with

i tried some stuff in turbo pascal (long time ago), but i lost trace when i needed pointers. they just stacked and my brain had an overflow, thus the learning process segfaulted.

[cavesomething]

Basically, an added tissue paper shouldnt (always) result in slag (or worse)

It should turn the item into paper!, set fire resistance to -100, HP to 1 damage(if it is a weapon) or ac bonus(if it is armour) to 0, and make it give random 1HP damage (paper cuts). It should weigh 0.1 kg or less, and have the ability to act as a scroll for the purposes of inscription!

It could be quite amusing to be able to walk around with a paper Midnight robe with the words Kick Me written on it....

[Rednaxela]

Great ideas with possible "dynamic alchemy"! I love this idea! (just made a message board account to display my enthuasiam for this idea ) I might want to help help tring to code it (I do have a bit of C/C++ experiance, but I've but I'm not familar at all with the internal archetecture of crossfire).

It could be quite amusing to be able to walk around with a paper Midnight robe with the words Kick Me written on it....

I think that sort of thing in general might be neat, but that's just a little silly

[Aaron]

I think adding chairs or tables would mostly be a way to make money of specail furniture, but 7 beds becomes one sleeping bag of reality?

that would be really fun, and i know i would decortae my appartment with encahnted fruniture. but you chould also add some tables and charis and make a desk to hold stuff. or this could just become another skill.

but if you add the table or chair where it made sense, like 4 table legs and a club make a big club?

also tisue paper could be used in armour, like light dragon scale mail? or to decrease the weight of items instead of burning them? it should also be possible to have many tissues to make cloths to wipe your face with incase you blind yourself...

[cavesomething]

Even better if alchemy could be done on pets.....

Ooh, this seems like a cool idea for a new skill.... bioengineering!

Get a sufficant number of pets in the same room and fuse them together, merge there properties to create weird magical hybrid creatures.

Check against all attack types, skills and movement types etc, if both/all pets have it the new creature does, if one has it the new creature might (dependent on relative level and luck).

damage, hitpoints and level, rolled to the mean in a similar way.

This would mean at high levels, mixing a goblin and a bat would give a flying bat goblin, without too much harm to stats.

Of course failure should make them hostile, extreme failure make them hostile, come after their creator, duplicate uncontrollably and explode next to him.

Of course ideally there would be a better way to do pet tracking first, maybe something like a 'pets' command to list all pets that you control along with their level (and have killpet [petnum] instead of just killpets)

Could be pretty cool to have a flying, dragon-breath wielding lich as a pet.....

Maybe be able to throw in furniture too, and animate it, create a flying bat-chair-table-goblin?