Alchemy and Smithing

[Chrone]

Hi,

I would like to know if any people have the same feeling than I do :
- 'item making skills' are largely underpowered compared to the fighting skills
- home made items are useless, because usually, when you are able to make the item of your dreams, you already have a better equipement
- 'lab book' for formulae are too rare to be usefull, and usually, you find the item in a show before finding the all the formulae to make it !
- making an item is much more expensive than simply buying it in the shop (ok, you must find it first), as it needs lots of experience in many skills (alchemy, smithery, ...), whereas buying the same item only need a few hack-and-slash to get the money
- to level in alchemy, you need to make some potions, or identify some. When looking in the 'formulae' list in CVS, you see that the most simple formulae rewards you with 1000xp, and to be sure to brew it (according to my C understanding), you must be at least lvl 10 to have 100% success chance ! (you need 500000 xp to get top that lvl)

I think that almost nobody really uses alchemy because of that. To improve the use of alchemy and other skills,
- change the chance to get recipies
- make all magic shop 'permanent' so that they never reset (and no more bunch of easy-to-get items) (yesterday, I found a ring of the Prelate in a shop ! much too easy)
- change the xp reward for successful formulae, and how the success is calculated (now it is more or less (1+lvl)/(2*diff), so you need to be lvl 99 in alchemy to make (100% success) the potion of fire immu (diff = 50), whereas I costs only 500plat in shops, lvl/diff should be more accurate). I think that nobody will never try to reach lvl 99 in alchemy just to make the potion
- put a shop in Scorn (or other town) which sells only lab books (note : the central library have many books, but very few formulae)

[Leaf]

- 'item making skills' are largely underpowered compared to the fighting skills

What do you mean by largely underpowered?

- home made items are useless, because usually, when you are able to make the item of your dreams, you already have a better equipement

Are you saying that crafted items are not as good as most dungeon treasure?

Some cases yes. But then again, I don't think we want players capable of crafting Midnight Robes.

- 'lab book' for formulae are too rare to be usefull, and usually, you find the item in a show before finding the all the formulae to make it !

Lab books rare - where are you shopping?

As for finding crafted items in a shop. What's wrong with that?

Are you saying that crafted items should be no_drop or decay/melt quickly so they can't be found in a shop?

- making an item is much more expensive than simply buying it in the shop (ok, you must find it first), as it needs lots of experience in many skills (alchemy, smithery, ...), whereas buying the same item only need a few hack-and-slash to get the money

Please provide a specific example of this.

- to level in alchemy, you need to make some potions, or identify some. When looking in the 'formulae' list in CVS, you see that the most simple formulae rewards you with 1000xp, and to be sure to brew it (according to my C understanding), you must be at least lvl 10 to have 100% success chance ! (you need 500000 xp to get top that lvl)y

The alchemy skill applies to more then just potions.. it also includes oils, dusts, and stones.

As for gaining experience in alchemy, it's actually quite simple (though tedious at times - dropping and remove ingredients from the cauldron). For instance, if you need 8 things of item X to make product Y - drop 64 of item X in the cauldron and use the alchemy skill - if you succeed (and using the xp numbers you provided..) you just gained 8000xp.

I think that almost nobody really uses alchemy because of that.

I disagree. I know for a fact that many players on cf.mf.net have used alchemy to build a massive fortune and get them listed in the top 20 hiscore list in a very short amount of time (less then 2 weeks..)

To improve the use of alchemy and other skills,
- change the chance to get recipies

From where - dungeon treasure or in shops?

- make all magic shop 'permanent' so that they never reset (and no more bunch of easy-to-get items) (yesterday, I found a ring of the Prelate in a shop ! much too easy)

Make shops so their inventory never resets? What happens when all the items purchased?

Ex: all food is bought or purchased in the Scorn shops - I don't think the next new player to login and create a char is going to be happy about that.

Given the amount of items players drop (sell) in a shop - to find an item that you are interested in or to check the shop inventory (via the sign) would be very painful. Assuming no server crash of course...

- change the xp reward for successful formulae, and how the success is calculated (now it is more or less (1+lvl)/(2*diff), so you need to be lvl 99 in alchemy to make (100% success) the potion of fire immu (diff = 50), whereas I costs only 500plat in shops, lvl/diff should be more accurate). I think that nobody will never try to reach lvl 99 in alchemy just to make the potion

Since I'm not certain how the current xp/reward calculation, I can't comment on this.

- put a shop in Scorn (or other town) which sells only lab books (note : the central library have many books, but very few formulae)

This is certainly a possibility.

[Guest]

OK, maybe I was a bit extreme about a few things.

First of all, I agree that you can use alchemy to make large amount of platinum, but it does not help against much in dungeons.

As an example of what I said, yesterday, I found a recipe for 'potion of fortitude' : 3 water of the wise, 1 pile of philosophical salt, 1 small troll liver.
OK, so this is a 3 ingredients formula, quite difficult to perform (3 ingredients is more difficult) and you need 2 ingredients made with alchemy to get it.

Now, lets have a look at the difficulty for each part :
- get a small troll liver is quite simple
- the water of the wise is diff=8
- the philosophical salt is diff=5
- the potion itself is diff=16

(remember : % chance.of.success = (1+skill.lvl)/2/diff )
lets try it with a player with alchemy skill at lvl 10 :
success.water_of_the_wise = 68%
success.philosophical_salt = 100%
success.potion_fortitude = 34%

So you can brew a potion of fortitude at lvl 10 (with a bit of luck). And guess what does the potion do ? Cast a 'constitution' spell which if a lvl2 sorcery spell !
So you need to be lvl 10 in alchemy (and get a few ingredients in dungeons) for the spell, and lvl 2 in sorcery for the same spell.

For the opportunity to get a lab book, I did a few C reading, and a few more roll dices to test :
for a book lvl x, the chances to get a formula (depending on the number of ingredients in it) are :
lvl 5 : 82,1%(1) 17,9%(2) 0%(3) 0%(4) 0%(5)
lvl 10 : 58,8%(1) 27%(2) 11,3%(3) 2,9%(4) 0%(5)
lvl 15 : 47,1%(1) 24,6%(2) 15,8%(3) 9%(4) 3,5%(5)
lvl 20 : 38,2%(1) 24,5%(2) 15,4%(3) 10,7%(4) 11,2l%(5)
lvl 25 : 34,3%(1) 21,1%(2) 15,3%(3) 10,4%(4) 18,9%(5)
lvl 30 : 31,5%(1) 17,4%(2) 14,9%(3) 12%(4) 24,2%(5)
lvl 35 : 25,4%(1) 17,7%(2) 14,7%(3) 11,3%(4) 30,9%(5)
lvl 40 : 24,7%(1) 15,3%(2) 14,8%(3) 9%(4) 36,2%(5)

And the lvl of the book is the lvl you need to have in the literacy skill to read it. This make the 'interesting' formula almost impossible to get, and to read (as you lvl very slowly in literacy compared to the other skills)

[Casper]

In general I do not oppose Guest's idea to improve alchemy-like skills.

Most of the improvements suggested do not seem to hard to implement either...

So when do we get to play with the patches (s)he makes?

[Leaf]

<..>
This make the 'interesting' formula almost impossible to get, and to read (as you lvl very slowly in literacy compared to the other skills)

Was this with or without the patch from Ryo that improved experience gain for literacy and a few other skills?

[Leaf]

So you can brew a potion of fortitude at lvl 10 (with a bit of luck). And guess what does the potion do ? Cast a 'constitution' spell which if a lvl2 sorcery spell ! So you need to be lvl 10 in alchemy (and get a few ingredients in dungeons) for the spell, and lvl 2 in sorcery for the same spell.

You get access to a spell that has 0% chance of failure (assuming your CON is <20) and takes 0 spell points to "use" and does not require the sorcery skill (via learned skill or talisman) to cast or use. That is alot of "freebies" for you.

But, I think you are focusing on the amount of time, work and effort to get that lowly level 2 spell. Right?


Some food for thought..
As a sorcerer, you have access to a spell at level 2 which requires other classes or skill to be level 10 (plus a large chance of failure and potentially expensive to access too!)

[Leaf]

So when do we get to play with the patches (s)he makes?

A patch can be posted at:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_i ... tid=313833

Now when it is made available on any of the servers is up to the admins or other people who run that server. Depending on the feedback - the patch could end up as part of the official release.

Note:

Please specify when submitting the patch if you want it to be part of the official (CVS) release.

If it is intended for CVS, you should be clear if it is ready now, or if it is at an experimental stage, as sometimes the links are posted for testing purposes

[Aldebaran]

server/alchemy.c
fix possible abuse of shadow alchemy: do not allow the generated items
to be more valuable than the ingredients when using alternate recipes.

do not allow generated items to be more valuable than the ingredients??

then why make them?

If you don't want people making stuff for profit, then make the generated items not sellable, like food created from create food spell or items dropped by summoned monsters. But at least let us USE the items we can make.

What exactly is the motivation to use alchemy now?
You can't make anything that you can't buy easier.

What was the reasoning behind this? Was someone getting too rich? Was it the idiots stuffing any thing they could find in a cauldron and causing problems?

Alchemy as it stands now, is pointless and not at all worth the danger of uncontrolled manna.

[Leaf]

do not allow generated items to be more valuable than the ingredients?? then why make them?

Because this is the only way to obtain the item(s) in question. ?

If you don't want people making stuff for profit, then make the generated items not sellable, like food created from create food spell or items dropped by summoned monsters.

You would rather see items created via alchemy sell for nothing, then sell for the base cost of ingredients?

So, now you are agreeing with the update in alchemy.c ?

But at least let us USE the items we can make.

You can.

What exactly is the motivation to use alchemy now?

Because this is the only way to obtain the item(s) in question?

You can't make anything that you can't buy easier.

Eh?

An item has to be for sale in a shop and you have to find it, plus you have to be able to afford it in order to obtain it. That could take alot of time and effort. Alchemy can really help you turn those odds to something more in your favor.

What was the reasoning behind this?

Economy exploit.

Was someone getting too rich?

More then someone.. it was multiple people with millions of platinum.

Was it the idiots stuffing any thing they could find in a cauldron and causing problems?

Yep, then scripting the alchemy process and leaving their character logged in all night and then collecting the mountain of platinum coins it would create.

[Aldebaran]

ok, if the reasoning behind this is too much plat, then why not make the items from alternate recipes unsellable

As for alchemy being the only way to obtain some items, huh? in bulk yes, but :
I am looking through the forumlae file everything else is reasonably common. It is easier to find 10 potions of cold immunity than it is to find 10 ice para-elemental residues.

To say that alchemy is the only way to obtain any of the items alchemy can produce or even the easiest way is just plain wrong.

Alchemy now seems the worst way to obtain any of the items that alchemy can produce.

If the piles of platinum from alchemy were the problem then the solution would be to make the products of alchemy not valuable to someone trying to sell them to the shops. Instead, alchemy is now very much broken.

Are there any players doing alchemy seriously anymore?
Leaf, have you ever done much alchemy in the game?

You had idiots stuffing furniture into cauldrons and creating terrible monsters, but they are still doing that. Zeph tried to have an alchemy class and someone didn't listen to him and killed most of the class. As for the scripters, they will still make their mountains of plat making philo oil, they don't care if it takes a while, their scripting.

As for me it is easier to simply buy potions of cold resistance than it is to make them. At alchemy 57, it was still somewhat of a danger to make potions of cold resistance even with the fire alchemists mark.

What exactly do you suppose anyone would bother leveling in alchemy to make?

It's not the economy issue, it's the alternate recipies issue that bothers me. I havn't checked but I imagine I could make gobs of plat from mushroom of gourmet. That isn't a problem because it isn't an alternate recipe. So I suppose I could run a script to make piles of plat doing that, then just buy my potions of cold resistance.

I have millions of plat, I got it from identifying chests and selling the good stuff. Alchemy gave me potions of cold resistance in bulk.

Economy? Every wizard in humanoids drops about 2000 plat worth of stuff?