[new skill] two one handed weapons

[Mith]

hi,

lately i beated some blade dancers to dead and i noticed one blade dancer dropped two sleek katana's... Nice, the katana's sell good...

Besides the plat (i dont care much about plat nowadays) it made me thinking... wielding two chaos swords... would be nice!

So... the next step is easy... i suggest a new skill, a skill that enables you to wield two one-handed-weapons, not necessarily the same.

I think this skill should be aquired in a hard quest that needs a decent lvl 40 melee char to complete*. The skill should _not_ appear in random places or in shops, it should be learned only in that quest.

First about the skill:
- the skill enables you to wield two not necessarily different one handed weapons
- you start the skill with some xp (half of one handed weapons **
- the damage of your second weapon sould simply add to the total damage you deal (with the 2 one-handed-weapons skill readied)
- the skill should maybe be restricted to certain professions (warrior, paladin, ninja?) - but then these professions should have some draw backs too... for example: no summoning?***
- the quest should be LONG, boring and pretty hard to complete. maybe add some special monsters to get it harder :)
- the skill should be learned ONLY to the char that did the quest. maybe some magic stone as found in the chaos liar.****

i would love you commenting about this idea.. meanwhile i open an other topic for more ideas :)

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* we dont want high lvl spellcasters that almost cant kill an ant with melee to learn this skill. its a skill for fighters!
** this sounds insane.. if you learn the skill with lvl 100 one handed, you get almost 74 mln free xp. granted... 74 mln is almost nothing on the bln you need for lvl 100 :)
possible fix: substract the 2 one-handed-weapons xp from one handed weapons xp or simply forget about that kickstart and start with lvl 0 (sure its boring to kill goblins again!)
*** if this is hard to realise, then open the 2 one-handed-weapons skill to everyone
****to prevent other players teleported in... the quest should - at least partly - be non-magic (seems reasonable, for it is a quest that gives you a very powerfull melee skill!)

[Leaf]

This topicw as brought up in the mailing list a few years ago. While you provide a number of options and scenarious within the game for it's use or accurement - here's what was asked from a server coding perspective:

http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail ... 00701.html

1) How do you deal with weapon attack types? Right now, for attacks, all values are basically grabbed from the player structure. IF a player is using a firebrand and frostbrand (one attack fire, one attack cold), does he now attack with fire and cold on his increased attack rate?

2) I'm a little worried about trying to adjust speeds and damage within the code. Its worth trying, but I'm concerned that people will find combination of weapons that become very powerful, and more twiddling would be needed.

3) Note that there is no easy way to know an artifact weapon from a none artifact one. The only really definition of artifact is really rare (or well guarded), with really good abilities. There is no flag that says it is an artifact. This also gets more difficult in many maps may just take a normal item and mutate it into an artifact (I believe most of the weapons in tower of demonology fall into that category)

4) I agree with Peter's comment in that I don't want to be shuffling my equipped items whenever I want to use a bow. And you go with that, you could make the same argument that at least one hand has to be free to use a scroll, rod, wand, and potentially two free to use a staff.

If that is a worry about playbalance (or try to improve it), you could perhaps add a flag like 'in hand', and you only get the relevant bonuses when that item is inhand, but the server will switch between the appropriate equipped items as need. So for example, you have a sword and shield in hand. You fire a bow, so your sword and shield are no longer in hand, and you lose the relevant AC and any other benefits. You then attack something, so your sword and shield go back 'in hand'. But I really think that is probably more effort than its worth.
Easier to presume that right now, it works that the item (scroll, wand, whatever) is only in hand long enough for you to do your action, and then you switch back to what you were doing. If you really want to add realism, changing armor, shields, and weapons should take much longer than they do right now.

5) IMO, the right (but hard) way to do multiple weapons would be to have the two of them be independent. Weapon #1 as equipped by the player may have weapon speed 1.5, and weapon #2 may have speed 0.5 Player attacks, and the weapons do there thing as long as they have the relevant speed. But this is much harder to do, as each attack you basically need to find the weapons. But this does fix problems of damage averaging and multiple attacktypes.

To date, the dual wielding weapons options has not been implemented for these reasons. That doesn't mean it can't and never will be implemented; there's a number of factors to consider before proceeding with it though.

[Mith]

This topicw as brought up in the mailing list a few years ago. While you provide a number of options and scenarious within the game for it's use or accurement - here's what was asked from a server coding perspective:

http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail ... 00701.html

<...snip...>

I see the problems. for it is late i wont think about it now...
maybe i just find a note in my app with the solution on it if i log in next time (j/k - i only believe in the power of the DM, and i bet no DM has a solution yet, for the dual wielding is not yet implementend )

i eventually find more problems

[Mith]

ok... its day now :)

1) How do you deal with weapon attack types? Right now, for attacks, all values are basically grabbed from the player structure. IF a player is using a firebrand and frostbrand (one attack fire, one attack cold), does he now attack with fire and cold on his increased attack rate?

5) IMO, the right (but hard) way to do multiple weapons would be to have the two of them be independent. Weapon #1 as equipped by the player may have weapon speed 1.5, and weapon #2 may have speed 0.5 Player attacks, and the weapons do there thing as long as they have the relevant speed. But this is much harder to do, as each attack you basically need to find the weapons. But this does fix problems of damage averaging and multiple attacktypes.

Let me fist state... i have no idea about how the Cf code works, and how my suggestions might alter that way.

A player does some damage independend of the weapon thats wielded. For example: if i wield a chaos sword (str+1, dam+100) i do 182 damage, with a dagger (that gives str+1, dam+2) i do 84 damage.
It seems i do 82 damage no matter what weapon is wielded.

Now, i think splitting the dam up in 3 parts:
1) the independent of weapon damage has ALL attack types of both weapons and what other equipment gives
2) the damage added by weapon Left has the attack types of that particular weapon and the attack types given by other - non weapon - equipment
3) the damage added by weapon Right has the attack types of that particular weapon and the attack types given by other - non weapon - equipment

the attack speed for 2) and 3) is easy --> just the usual calculation
the attack speed for 1) i have no clue about. I think thats for now just the speed of the weapon, but that cant remain the same - for there is no such thing as THE weapon speed if you wield two different weapons.

A work around could be to add 1) to both 2) and 3) , but that would give the dual wielding player an enormous - and unfair - boost in damage.
just splitting up wont make sense eighter for it would result in a lower total damage in case there is a fast and a slow weapon wielded.
A solution could be dividing 1) over 2) and 3) dependent of the weapon speed: a faster weapon gets more of 1), a slower weapon less.

ok... i think i'm messing up things... just tell me where i'm missing the points, maybe i can 'fix' it :)

[Avion]

Let me fist state... i have no idea about how the Cf code works, and how my suggestions might alter that way.

A lot of things have been changed in the code since this was brought up on the list and many of the problems have been solved for or have changed. These changes include, new skill system, body part tracking, automatic unapply of weilded/worn items which handles sheild/weapon switches.

Many of the changes to make this happen now need to be made in the attack code. Since in CF you just ram into your opponent anyway, I think the only meaningful way to do multi handed weapons is to calculate a bunch of attacks and apply them all in that 'bump'. Presumably we would want to account for monsters with many limbs being able to do many more attacks per hit and thus have greater accuracy if not greater damage. I think to make this worth while here needs to be a balancing act here so that for melee you have some sort of three way pull between defense (guy with shield), damage (big twohanded weapon) and chance to hit (multi armed attacker). Also there are some questions as to using two shields or a multi armed attacker having something like two two handed swords. Personally I think we should just not allow these combinations to keep things easier and just allow one handed weapons to be used this way (still giving a four armed troll 4 clubs would be fun thought).

[mlab]

I fifth the request for a two-one-handed weapon skill!

[Mith]

Many of the changes to make this happen now need to be made in the attack code. Since in CF you just ram into your opponent anyway, I think the only meaningful way to do multi handed weapons is to calculate a bunch of attacks and apply them all in that 'bump'.

I am glad to read lots of the problems are actually solved without being solved :) (that is: disappeared in time)

One bunch of attacks is possible, but for if one wields a +20 weapon and a badly corroded -20 one (dont know if thats even possible...) it would make a difference of 40 in Wc.

Assuming this somehow weird situation, it would be likely to hit with the +20 weapon dealing damage with that, while the change of hitting your monster with the -20 weapon is just little (depending on your skill lvl)

I think an attack should consist of 3 attacks (and i rephrase my previous post)
1) 'base attack'
2) right handed attack
3) left handed attack

where 1) is the attack dealt without weapons (except for stat enchantments) having the attack types of both the non-weapon equipment and the weapons. Wc overall lvl

2) is the attack dealt with the weapon wielded right, Wc of the skill + weapon enchantment

3) attack with left wielded weapon, Wc of the skill + weapon enchantment

the attack types for 2) and 3) i suggest are the attack types of non-weapon equipment + the attack types of the particular weapon.

One might think that attack 1) is overpowered, but thats not.
Imagine for a while what would happen when attack 1) only has the attack types of the quipment and not the weapons.
Then the importance of attack types gained by weapons is reduced with a great factor.
Take for example a fighter (str 30; one handed weapon lvl 100)wielding a head cutter.In the current system he will attack with around 150 dam weaponmagic + death (and other attack types, depending on his equipment).
With this - imo bad idea - he will attack with 130 dam with attack types he gains from his equipment and with only 20 dam with the headcutters attack types weaponmagic and death.

For i am repeating myself - and i dont like that, for i dont like hearing myself speaking :) - i'll just end now and wait for more comments & suggestions

[mlab2]

Sounds like a good idea! Hope someone implements.

[Avion]

Just a note about left and right hand comments, any work on a multiple-one handed attack has to deal with creatures with more than two arms. The body code handles this and so there should be nothing in the code preventing a 4 armed PC class or a 13 armed demon from using a multi-one handed attack skill.

[Mith]

Just a note about left and right hand comments, any work on a multiple-one handed attack has to deal with creatures with more than two arms. The body code handles this and so there should be nothing in the code preventing a 4 armed PC class or a 13 armed demon from using a multi-one handed attack skill.

whoah... things 're getting nice. imagine... 13 chaos swords... 1300 damage...
luck there is the item power restriction! (and i hope that restriction also affects monsters...)
as soon as we are speaking about multi (> 2) wielding, the restriction 'only one artifact weapon' becomes a prerequest. I hope there is an easy way to know an artifact weapon from a non artifact one nowadays

AFAIK there are (atm) no chars that have more than 2 arms, thats why i didnt mention 3 or more wielded weapons. Maybe if one day a Xorn appears, this problem will rise.

But still, the idea was a skill that enables a player to wield 2 weapons - or maybe one more weapon, so you can learn the skill several times. (doing the quest twice allows you to wield 3 weapons)

ok.. just brainstorming... we're talking about a special skill, so i think there should be no mobs that have this skill, except some special named mobs, and mobs that already have the skill - just to prevent ogres/titans/name-a-mob to become much more powerfull.

one suggestion to balance this skill: compared to one weapon, it is harder to coordinate two weapons, so your weapon speed will be lower if you wield two weapons.

pro's of the skill:
- more damage
- more attack types

con's
- slower attack (a reasonable %, maybe 10 or 15%?)
- no shield

anyone has an idea if, and if so, when this skill might be implemented? (just curious, i'm _not_ asking for a deadline )