Stealing skill against players?
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Anonymous_
Alignment points and levels would be a good idea instead of black and white flags, e.g. stealing and getting caught gives some negative alignment points, killing players (that are in certain alignment point range) gives more negative alignment points and so on. And the alignment level changes in increasing steps like normal levels, e.g. "evil", "chaotic" etc. so that little stealing isn't as bad as killing players. Maybe players could give positive points to other players, e.g. when a higher level character gives something valuable to a newbie, the newbie could donate certain amount of positive alignment points to the character. When a player reaches certain negative alignment level, he becomes a fugitive and could be jailed for some time if he gets caught by NPC guards (with the option to pribe the guards, getting rescued from the jail by other players etc.)
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Anonymous_
Or better yet, all stealing should give negative points, and if the player gets caught, then the NPC guards would appear and try to catch the thief. Stealing cheaper things would give less negative alignment points and stealing expensive things would give more negative points, e.g. based on the value of the stolen things. If the thief gets caught, he could try to bribe the guards and if he gets jailed, other players should be able try to rescue him (if they want) e.g. by killing the guards and opening the cell door from outside. The jail time could depend on the alignment level of the character and completing the sentence without escaping could add some positive alignment points and improve the alignment level. Maybe certain races/character types could also start with different alignment levels, e.g. monks and priest with positive levels, dragons or wraiths with negative etc. A system like that would add more interaction to the game, there's nothing interesting in stealing from monsters (or players in the current system).
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Guest
A couple of things...
If you want to consider alignment, and the distribution of alignment points, then it logically follows that this has implications as far as you are viewed by your god. I would think that peaceful gods like Gaia (sp) would begin countering alignment points by revoking granted items and spells, progressing (with the accumulation of 'negative' alignment points) towards denying you any diety support altogether, forcing you to chose a new god until you could 'prove' yourself worthy by gaining 'positive' alignment points somehow... With a god like Mostrai, stealing might actually gain you favor in the eyes of your diety. The accumulation of 'negative' alignment points, in that case, would be a good thing, and stealing would be looked upon favorably. It's for this reason that flagging might be more easily implemented IMHO. The alignment issue opens up a whole can of worms beginning with the alignment of the gods themselves, and how one can act to hold himself in good stead with his god.
Leaf wrote
I'm a big fan of provincial histories and would like to see these town personalities represented in more decisions. Great thread, it draws other older arguements into play, perhaps the result will tie up some loose ends.
If you want to consider alignment, and the distribution of alignment points, then it logically follows that this has implications as far as you are viewed by your god. I would think that peaceful gods like Gaia (sp) would begin countering alignment points by revoking granted items and spells, progressing (with the accumulation of 'negative' alignment points) towards denying you any diety support altogether, forcing you to chose a new god until you could 'prove' yourself worthy by gaining 'positive' alignment points somehow... With a god like Mostrai, stealing might actually gain you favor in the eyes of your diety. The accumulation of 'negative' alignment points, in that case, would be a good thing, and stealing would be looked upon favorably. It's for this reason that flagging might be more easily implemented IMHO. The alignment issue opens up a whole can of worms beginning with the alignment of the gods themselves, and how one can act to hold himself in good stead with his god.
Leaf wrote
I think that this is a very good idea, much like the 'no-magic' in scorn. Although if it were implemented, I'd like to see the character of the map represented in the decision of where the flags were used. By that I'm drawing on the history of each map or town and suggesting that while that flag would be great in a 'neutral' town like Scorn, another town inhabitated by less savory characters and a muddled or revolutionary history would be less appropriate supporting this flag.Perhaps, a no_stealing flag can be created and that can be applied to entire maps (Scorn, Navar, etc.) ?
I'm a big fan of provincial histories and would like to see these town personalities represented in more decisions. Great thread, it draws other older arguements into play, perhaps the result will tie up some loose ends.
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Adam
Ideas on thief skills
I like the idea of a no stealing flag. Altho I thing the flag should be an allow stealing flag. That way only maps that are specificly given this flag would allow it. When any map that has a stealing square or flag (however they want to implement it) is entered, there should be a STRONG warning sent to the player that stealing is allowed in that area.
A created another post about allowing stealing in stores. This would give thiefs an outlet to practice their stealing without hurting other players, and would fit into the thief persona. There would probably need to be a limit to keep a single character from emptying out a store, or selling stolen goods back to the same store.
On another note. There could also be a PK flag this would work similarly to a stealing flag with a similar STRONG warning. Anying PKing in other areas should result in an Outlaw flags or similar punishments discussed in other Topics.
A created another post about allowing stealing in stores. This would give thiefs an outlet to practice their stealing without hurting other players, and would fit into the thief persona. There would probably need to be a limit to keep a single character from emptying out a store, or selling stolen goods back to the same store.
On another note. There could also be a PK flag this would work similarly to a stealing flag with a similar STRONG warning. Anying PKing in other areas should result in an Outlaw flags or similar punishments discussed in other Topics.
Outlaw...
Would system like this be good?
Getting outlaw flag:
1. Killing other player
2. Stealing from other player
Getting rid of flag:
1. Beign killed
2. "Forgive" command? (for accidental kills, like casting cone spells)
3. Some amount of jail time (depends from the crime)
Player with outlaw flag:
1. can be killed without punishment, player would attact him like attacing monsters, without needing chancing from peaceful -> Hostile
2. Anybody could steal from him without getting outlaw flag.
And, if you kill outlaw flagged person, you would get some kind of token
what could be brought to someplace (scorn castle?) for amount of diamonds
(10 x killed player lvl)?
Getting outlaw flag:
1. Killing other player
2. Stealing from other player
Getting rid of flag:
1. Beign killed
2. "Forgive" command? (for accidental kills, like casting cone spells)
3. Some amount of jail time (depends from the crime)
Player with outlaw flag:
1. can be killed without punishment, player would attact him like attacing monsters, without needing chancing from peaceful -> Hostile
2. Anybody could steal from him without getting outlaw flag.
And, if you kill outlaw flagged person, you would get some kind of token
what could be brought to someplace (scorn castle?) for amount of diamonds
(10 x killed player lvl)?
I ended up writing working code for the outlaw flag and for friendly fire (mitigates much PVP damage if you are Peaceful) but then decided to shelf the outlaw part for a while. I had implemented it so that killing while hostile, or stealing from a player *and getting caught* added to your outlaw rank (instead of a flag it was some 10 increasing levels of outlaw from scoundrel to rogue to villian) and getting killed by a hostile player dropped an outlaw rank (except in the arena of course.) I thought it was reasonably balanced and felt pretty good anyway. I'm not a big fan of the suggestions for jail or forgiveness - but there was a DM command to manipulate the outlaw setting for players - as in real life, I think justice should be decided on by people and not algorhythims.
Why did I shelf it - I didn't want to glamorize PVP and think this might have done that a little- I think some players would love to be Villians. Also it would really not work well if you were playing on a permadeath server... Now the idea was to make a server setting to turn this on of off and default to off, but once I committed the friendly fire code I thought - lets see how that bit works out first.
Adding a bounty is a good idea too.
Why did I shelf it - I didn't want to glamorize PVP and think this might have done that a little- I think some players would love to be Villians. Also it would really not work well if you were playing on a permadeath server... Now the idea was to make a server setting to turn this on of off and default to off, but once I committed the friendly fire code I thought - lets see how that bit works out first.
Adding a bounty is a good idea too.
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Desenko
i know some of the earlier posts talked about bounties, or being able to sell a body part/token or something from a fallen outlaw. and one that sugested the amount have to do with the player's level. shouldn't it be more related to the amount of crimes they've been involved in? (think back to the old westerm 'wanted dead or alive' posters)
maybe there could be a spell or scroll or something to instantly send an outlaw to jail(this could probaly be set to only work if the person casting is a victim of this outlaw)
i think the forgive command could be pretty useful, but it should be limited to only being able to reduce the amount of outlaw points caused by that person(for instance: you're in a dungeon and you kill 3 players on purpose, you get 3 outlaw points. you'd have to be forgiven by each player to get those 3 points removed, and you couldn't have the same player 'forgive' you 3 times)
i'm not sure if much of that is clear, but if anyone see's any ideas that havn't already been mentioned, i could clarify them for you
-Desenko
maybe there could be a spell or scroll or something to instantly send an outlaw to jail(this could probaly be set to only work if the person casting is a victim of this outlaw)
i think the forgive command could be pretty useful, but it should be limited to only being able to reduce the amount of outlaw points caused by that person(for instance: you're in a dungeon and you kill 3 players on purpose, you get 3 outlaw points. you'd have to be forgiven by each player to get those 3 points removed, and you couldn't have the same player 'forgive' you 3 times)
i'm not sure if much of that is clear, but if anyone see's any ideas that havn't already been mentioned, i could clarify them for you
-Desenko
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CrowJuice
This is a direct (with a little editing) copy & past from another one of my posts on another board:
I like the way Lineage 2 does pvp. They use karma to determine who is a PK. All start of as having their name colored white. Where white equals zero karma. If a character attacks a white then the attackers name turns purple (warning color with no karma penalty). If a character kills a white then the PKs name turns red. If a character attacks a white and the other one retaliate then both turn purple. If a purple kills another purple then there is no karma penalty. The more whites you kill, the more negativ karma you get.
Now here is the fun part. Red players have a high chance of dropping items. And since in that game most people know this, reds usually have a lynch mob after them when ever they are spotted in populated areas. Red's are also attacked by guards.
Now the only way to get rid off all the negative karma is to kill loads and loads of mobs of your lvl or higher.
This is a 100% self regulated system to punish griefers and to make it fun for everybody. Now the system isn't perfect BUT it works REALLY well.
So to sum it up:
White attacks white ==> Attacker turns purple
Purple kills white ==> Attacker turns red with karma penalty
Purple attacks white AND white attacks back ==> Both turn purple
Purple kills purple ==> Both stay purple for a short while with no karma penalty
I like the way Lineage 2 does pvp. They use karma to determine who is a PK. All start of as having their name colored white. Where white equals zero karma. If a character attacks a white then the attackers name turns purple (warning color with no karma penalty). If a character kills a white then the PKs name turns red. If a character attacks a white and the other one retaliate then both turn purple. If a purple kills another purple then there is no karma penalty. The more whites you kill, the more negativ karma you get.
Now here is the fun part. Red players have a high chance of dropping items. And since in that game most people know this, reds usually have a lynch mob after them when ever they are spotted in populated areas. Red's are also attacked by guards.
Now the only way to get rid off all the negative karma is to kill loads and loads of mobs of your lvl or higher.
This is a 100% self regulated system to punish griefers and to make it fun for everybody. Now the system isn't perfect BUT it works REALLY well.
So to sum it up:
White attacks white ==> Attacker turns purple
Purple kills white ==> Attacker turns red with karma penalty
Purple attacks white AND white attacks back ==> Both turn purple
Purple kills purple ==> Both stay purple for a short while with no karma penalty