Crossfire Forum

Here are some suggestions which should make people happy/angry and talk alot...

We should axe the Q. I wouldn't be sad to see this race gone since they have really been replaced by dragons. While were at, it ditch the northman and maybe the half-orc too..

I had a discussion (brief) about changing the Wraith race so that as you increase levels you gain undead powers (something like you start out as a weak spirit grow into a wraith and progress into a lich lord... type thing).

Make more distinction between the races. Like fireborn, dragons and wraiths cannot also join a class but make them more as class in themselves (you can still *learn* skills however ofcourse)..., some of the other race/classes or combinations could be tweeked or removed as well to highlight differences and come up with new ways to play the game.

I don't know, I'm just stirring up the pot.

Avion wrote: We should axe the Q. I wouldn't be sad to see this race gone since they have really been replaced by dragons. While were at, it ditch the northman and maybe the half-orc too..

Why? Is there a real need to drop them?

Avion wrote: I had a discussion (brief) about changing the Wraith race so that as you increase levels you gain undead powers (something like you start out as a weak spirit grow into a wraith and progress into a lich lord... type thing).

Sounds great to me.

Avion wrote: Make more distinction between the races. Like fireborn, dragons and wraiths cannot also join a class but make them more as class in themselves (you can still *learn* skills however ofcourse)..., some of the other race/classes or combinations could be tweeked or removed as well to highlight differences and come up with new ways to play the game.

Maybe they should have some skills already (maybe wood lore and scaling etc. for dragons, wizardry for Fireborns etc.

Avion wrote:Here are some suggestions which should make people happy/angry and talk alot...

We should axe the Q. I wouldn't be sad to see this race gone since they have really been replaced by dragons.

I disagree on that. Quetzals are quite different from dragons (even if the serpent-like pictures are quite close).

While were at, it ditch the northman and maybe the half-orc too..

That I'm not sure either... I think the current problem is that some races are just too powerful. A Fireborn/Monk/Priest of Gaea is a nasty combination. Same thing can be said about dragons - they tend to gain advantages way too fast.
I think we should take the problem in the opposite direction: instead of removing races/classes not powerful enough, we should try to tone-down the most powerful ones, to promote a larger diversity. Else the universe of Crossfire will be limited to Dwarves, Humans, Fireborns and Dragons.

Playing a dragon is NOT easy. You are limited to the equipment you can wear, first of all.. Had it not been for some generous help from higher-level players, I would still be level 9-10.. I admit I have died a lot through carelessness, but I have also died a lot due to the fact that at low level, you hardly have any protection from attacks as a dragon.. Low armor, mediocre AC.. At higher levels, I'm not so sure if things aren't pretty well balanced, since everyone can improve their stats beyond their birth-stats..

Dragon breath is overrated.. Burning Hands are way cheaper and do more damage -- may not have as much range as Dragon breath, but ohh well.. Besides, everyone can get dragon breath.. I saw the spellbook in a store once..

It's all in how you play the game.. People have preferences and specialties.. I just recently picked up a dragon class.. I used to play elf/human sorcerer, and it was a lot easier to get pass the first few levels than it is with a dragon..

I disagree on that. Quetzals are quite different from dragons (even if the serpent-like pictures are quite close).

Well this is true, dragons are different from everything - that's kind of my point. Unless you make the Q different from everything too, what's the point of having them except to make people post messages about why their Q players can't seem to do what the other dragons are doing... Make the Q masters of psionics with a whole range of abilities at specific levels, and I'd change my tune pretty fast...

While were at, it ditch the northman and maybe the half-orc too..

That I'm not sure either... I think the current problem is that some races are just too powerful. A Fireborn/Monk/Priest of Gaea is a nasty combination. Same thing can be said about dragons - they tend to gain advantages way too fast.
I think we should take the problem in the opposite direction: instead of removing races/classes not powerful enough, we should try to tone-down the most powerful ones, to promote a larger diversity. Else the universe of Crossfire will be limited to Dwarves, Humans, Fireborns and Dragons.

I don't see much point talking about power specifically, although I do agree that you shouldn't be able to play a Fireborn/Monk/Priest, the races should be balanced and if they are not that should be fixed I think. I would like to see certain races not being able to use the class packages (although nothing would stop them from learning most skills if they like...). To balance this add in some special skills that scale well. Fireborn or dragon or Wraith should be a class as well as race (limited to fireborns dragons or wraiths or course, no half orc fireborn players please).
Humans, dwarves, elves et.. all are ok but beyond that I think really differnet races would be more fun than oh, look a snail-man race - exactly like a human but looks like a snail and is -2 agility but has an armoured hide.
I say we should cut a few races because it does take a bit of effort to maintain each race in the game and it ties up these races for change as long as they are in use.
It certainly is more fun and adds longevity to the game when the races are truly different like the dragon race (that's a whole new way to play right there) instead of different like the Northman race (just a bit of stat fiddling there...yawn). Now maybe we can bring some of the fringe races back as really unique races (like Q - masters of mental combat, or the Wraith that grows into a lich lord) with special game paths (they have different foods or differnet goals or differnet experience or different combat systems) , but right now they are just an eye sore I think...

Avion wrote:I would like to see certain races not being able to use the class packages

I agree on that.

Avion wrote: It certainly is more fun and adds longevity to the game when the races are truly different like the dragon race (that's a whole new way to play right there) instead of different like the Northman race (just a bit of stat fiddling there...yawn).

However one must admit that people are simply different depending on where they come from. That is why there is the Northman race. If you want to clean things up maybe do this: For certain races (this need not be limited to humans) you choose an origin and (maybe) a class. For example I choose to be a human and then choose whether I am from a city, the north (ex-Northman), maybe others like desert, foreest, whatever.

I support the idea that more races should be developing like the dragon. Whether Q's qualify for masters in mental combat is not so sure when looking at their intelligence, maybe this could be done by a new beholder race (this was lacking anyways).

One basic problem in race differences is however that they do not really differ at all, the dragon and all conceivable developing races included. They are either wizards/clerics or fighters. And all fighters fight in the same way. And it really is not different whether the wizards is focused on fire or on ice. Only when there is a better social engine they could really be different. Imagine a dragon walking into a village pub. Why do people react to him in the same way than they do to a human? This is where development might be interesting (though difficult).

One basic problem in race differences is however that they do not really differ at all, the dragon and all conceivable developing races included. They are either wizards/clerics or fighters.

That isn't true at all.

Avion wrote:That isn't true at all.

Well, maybe not quite, that is true. But what do you do? You run into dungeons and then you have two choices. Cast some spells until everything is dead or slay it all by hand (of course combinations are also possible, which is why there are dragons and Q's). Of course you can legitimately say, that I am boiling things down to the least common divisor. But this is what I meant. You will get the same problem again if you produce many developing races. In what way can they differ? What benefits shall the undead race get? New resistances? New attacktypes? Spell abilities? Dragons get that too.

Ok, the granted spell abilities make a great difference. But experience is gained by slaying monsters, so in the end the lich must go into the dungeon and there the spells will show their worth in slaying enemies. Well, your lich could be a great summoner (think of the Necromancer in Diablo 2) or a master of controlling other minds. But apart from that I cannot think of great differences. There is not much room in that for great differences. Should there? I believe no.

What makes races different. Maybe the dragon vs. human difference is not such a great problem because the dragon is somewhat different, that is true. What is the difference between a dwarf and a human? In my opinion this are important differences (not in CF but in an ideal case):

1. The way they interact with other NPC's - a human gets along better with other human than the dwarf does and vice versa.
2. Their motifs and aims: A human might go adventuring for other reasons than the dwarf does. The dwarf might mainly journey in order to get gold, while other races have other aims.

How can this be done? Some ideas:

1. Increase size of cities (I might help with that), make elven parts of the city and dwarfen parts (this was typical of medieval cities, so it is not unnatural). Then change the dialog system, so that persons can react differently to different races. At last there could be made some kind pf police quests, in which the player has to talk to people of different races to find things out etc. Thereby he of course has to bridge all the problems of his race. Maybe different languages would also be an idea (you can only talk to a person if your hero knows a language the other person knows. When you find things out you get personality experience, which helps you in communicating with other races.
2. Difficult. Maybe do it like this: All races become developing in some way, but they need different things to become more powerful. A dwarf maybe does not become dwarf lord by getting much experience, but he has to pay a lot of money (+maybe other requirements) to increase his dwarfen status.

I don't think you are in the ball park here at all. I don't think you have played a dragon or read the dragon description. What, in your opinion, is the difference I am speaking of between the other races and dragons? Tell me in one word....


Anyone want to say it?


Hint:

* Difficult. Maybe do it like this: All races become developing in some way, but they need different things to become more powerful.

I apologize for getting carried away here, I lost my manners. But I do not think you realize what is being discussed in this thread. Your comments were not constructive, but in fact obscuring the topic. The Dragon players are different in precisely the way you say they are not - they have a different style of play based on the fact that they have a unique food system. Increasing the size of the cities has nothing to do with this, and other changes you mention are either vague or not really related to existing game mechanisims.
This doesn't excuse my manners however.