Crossfire Forum

cavesomething wrote:I think in this case the issue is more the relationship between dying and the time to recover fully from that.

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In this sense (measuring the death penalty in terms of time) it is far worse to die at high levels, even though the way the penalty is calculated is the same.

Given that the exp is still a 'score' and therefore a (primitive, inaccurate, but nonetheless overused) measure of progress in the game, it seems to me that ways of losing something else would work better.

This all is SO true!
I don't even want to imagine what happens when my lvl 113.7 char dies... that would cost about 8 bld exp. at least. Then you're not even speaking about hours to regain that exp, rather weeks.

cavesomething wrote:I suggeset on IRC yesterday that gravestones might hold the solution to this, by holding inside gravestones the exp lost, so that a part of that could be returned to the player, by some item/person in game, who would charge money to do so (proportional to the amount of exp lost).

This would require fetching the gravestone from where it fell, bringing it to one of these special places, and spending a /lot/ of money (at least at high-levels) to get the exp back.

It still wouldn't make death pleasent, or rewarding, but it would at least allow players to limit their potential exp loss, if they have the money (it would also take lots of money out of the economy, which wouldn't be a bad thing either).

And who's going to fetch a gravestone from nearby an angry evil master? Or who's willing to risk his life to kill mad Zorn? Not to mention the monsters one cannot even reach (such as Lorkas) due to map constructions.

Basically, i like the idea, but there are two related but distinct problems. The first is the problem I just scetched, the second is that a player becomes weaker after dying, hence he has less change to get his gravestone.

The idea is more or less similar as the one i discussed on metalforge, namely to add exp to the monster once it kills a player. Currently, killing a player rewards only little exp, i think this should rather reflect the amount of exp the slain player lost or be related to the players lvl.

So far the 'regaining' of exp. Another subject I would like to discuss is the 25% perm exp setting. If this was increased to, say 75%, dying would hurt less, much less, for one would only loose 20% of 25% of his exp, which is about 5%. This is still a lot for the high lvl players - still days of playing - but I think many more can cope with it.

Another suggestion would be to remove exp only from the total exp, and not the skills. Then it still is a bad idea to die, but still less painfull. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to loose literacy exp when you die by a sword, does it?

cavesomething wrote: This would require fetching the gravestone from where it fell, bringing it to one of these special places, and spending a /lot/ of money (at least at high-levels) to get the exp back.

It still wouldn't make death pleasent, or rewarding, but it would at least allow players to limit their potential exp loss, if they have the money (it would also take lots of money out of the economy, which wouldn't be a bad thing either).

Mith wrote: And who's going to fetch a gravestone from nearby an angry evil master? Or who's willing to risk his life to kill mad Zorn? Not to mention the monsters one cannot even reach (such as Lorkas) due to map constructions.

My opinion entails..

Another player that is logged in on the server?

Your alt character (if you have one available, etc.)?

No one?

Some areas of the game may or will be harsh/challenging/cruel in this regard. It could also encourage more team play. "I should probably wait until Player X logs in before I try to fight Lorkas .. in case I die .. they can help me get my gravestone back."

Maybe some mechanism can be added, for a hefty price - to summon your gravestone for you so then you can -pay- (again?) to have the lost XP restored?

Mith wrote: The idea is more or less similar as the one i discussed on metalforge, namely to add exp to the monster once it kills a player. Currently, killing a player rewards only little exp, i think this should rather reflect the amount of exp the slain player lost or be related to the players lvl.

What happens if another player kills the monster that recently slain another player?
Does this second character gain the lost XP?

Mith wrote: Another suggestion would be to remove exp only from the total exp, and not the skills. Then it still is a bad idea to die, but still less painfull. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to loose literacy exp when you die by a sword, does it?

That's pretty close to using the "r" word (reality or realistic) without using it.

In-game reason (as an example): The trama of being raised from the dead is very traumatic and takes a devestating toll on one's mind and memories - this trauma shows up in the form of reduced coordination, agility, memory, et al.

Technical reason: I don't know.

Mith wrote: The idea is more or less similar as the one i discussed on metalforge, namely to add exp to the monster once it kills a player. Currently, killing a player rewards only little exp, i think this should rather reflect the amount of exp the slain player lost or be related to the players lvl.

Both mechanisms have issues.

For the first one (monster exp += lost exp) is that it could lead to a situation where being killed by a monster could become a convenient way to start off a new player (get a level 100-ish character, take of all armour, reduce you hitpoints massively, find a fairy, and give it a wand with one charge left, let it kill you, get your new level 1 character, kill the fairy, immediatly hit level 40+ in whichever skill you used).

Likewise, it could be an effective way to train hard to level skills like sorcery.

For the second approach (exp gain based on level) a reasonably high level character near their permenent xp level (there are quite a few of these ) could allow themselves to get killed repeatedly, they would very soon stop losing exp, and the monster would become more and more valuable until such time as your main character can be bothered to kill it.

Technically speaking, it's fairly easy to only lose overall xp and not skill-related one. So that could be done (new setting, maybe?).

From a game point of view, well, maybe exp loss could be limited to a few skills only (like: 30% of the 3 highest skills, and only 5 or 10% of others).

cavesomething wrote:For the first one (monster exp += lost exp) is that it could lead to a situation where being killed by a monster could become a convenient way to start off a new player (get a level 100-ish character, take of all armour, reduce you hitpoints massively, find a fairy, and give it a wand with one charge left, let it kill you, get your new level 1 character, kill the fairy, immediatly hit level 40+ in whichever skill you used).

Likewise, it could be an effective way to train hard to level skills like sorcery.

no, you can't get more xp than the half to the next level. kill a dragon with a lvl 2 magic spell, you have only 1 000 xp in that skill.

Leaf wrote: My opinion entails..
Another player that is logged in on the server?
Your alt character (if you have one available, etc.)?
No one?
Some areas of the game may or will be harsh/challenging/cruel in this regard. It could also encourage more team play. "I should probably wait until Player X logs in before I try to fight Lorkas .. in case I die .. they can help me get my gravestone back."

I so much love this lorkas example. The map is constructed that way that it is not possible to fight him with more than two players, and a two-player party has to _know_ how to do it.

Leaf wrote: What happens if another player kills the monster that recently slain another player?
Does this second character gain the lost XP?

that seams reasonable, unless it's an unique map.

Leaf wrote: That's pretty close to using the "r" word (reality or realistic) without using it.

It is indeed an 'r' word, namely the word "reasonable" (or "rational")

@ cavesomething:
you are right about the second approach, so scratch it.

I like the idea of standing on YOUR stone, and drinking potion of experience of remenance (or something). Thus getting X% back of what you lost, to maximum of what you had.
Scroll of summon lost graves (for resetted maps).
Scroll of personal grave locations.
When you PK someone, you can steal their grave...

Another thing

I can not gain 40 levels in one kill, not even 2. (I remember when you could)
Why would I as level 105 when I die and loose 20% drop:
5 levels Metalforge EXP
15 levels Classic EXP

No skill should loose more than 2 levels, general Exp should loose 20%.
Total exp loss is then calculated.

2 is just an example, but quite hard. at level 105.9 you drop to 103.0001.

no skill will drop more than 3 levels. (or at least shouldn't unless there is a bug in the code)

I havent played in probably 2 months now and it's mostly due to the fact that I was lvl 111 and died twice and reached lvl 108. The exp loss is just dumb.

I doubt that I will touch the game until something about this is resolved. People in the email chat spend too much time talking about the weather and not enough about making the game fun. I seriously dont care if the south and north poles have different weather.

I like the gravestone part.

But why not transport the gravestone to a graveyard so you can pick it up after comming back from the death. Of course the amount will be higher based on the ammound of XP that is storred in it. And only you can do this (in the same way you access your appartment). Could that be possible?

cheers,
bw