Alchemy (skill?) and item fatique [topic split]

[Leaf]

If the point of cf is exploration and questing, then why even have skills like bowyer or jeweler?

To have such a skill system implies that you intend for there to be a class of players who are townspeople, craftsmen and not explorers.

Or to give the explorers and questers another game aspect to "tinker" with the loot they obtain, spend treasure on and acquire, etc.

As far as the scripters, let them make their mountains of plat? Who cares? If that is what they want to do, they will soon burn out and switch to doing something else, either a different game, or maybe acquire the goblin chiefs head.

Here's what past history shown...

Before they get bored and switch to something else or go to a different game, they drop their piles of platinum in a common area for all others to pick up and take away. Soon, maps that rely on accumlated wealth or have high priced items (ex: Ring of Power) become so commonly available that each and every player has such item. Which makes playing and slaying other and now formerly difficult monsters easy and no challenge. Monsters are made tougher, maps are made harder, prices are increased to reflect this inflation.

At a later point, a new person logs in and isn't lucky enough to come across this player who quit or gave away their fortune. They can't afford to buy some of this better equipment so they are not strong enough to complete some of these maps. They die, suffer and struggle over and over again until they quit or some player hands over a ton of platinum or other items and then they are able to continue from there.

So, that's why people care about the massive influx of wealth obtained from skills such as alchemy. And, it's big part of the reason why the new guild system will have re-occuring "rent-like" costs, etc.

Neither is interested in staying in town and making arrows or potions. But if they were, then those options would be closed to them.

The second half of your statement, you're basing this off of what exactly?

I sense there was a possibility for this game, to expand, become comprehensive, to offer to everyone something to do. But with the ban on alternate recipes, and the suggestion that the point of cf is exploration and questing, then I understand that this is to be nothing more than a really nice version of nethack.

Please name which recipe(s) that were removed and explain how this "ruined"/stunted/hindered the game or the gaming experience.

[Casper]

I sense there was a possibility for this game, to expand, become comprehensive, to offer to everyone something to do. But with the ban on alternate recipes, and the suggestion that the point of cf is exploration and questing, then I understand that this is to be nothing more than a really nice version of nethack.

Please name which recipe(s) that were removed and explain how this "ruined"/stunted/hindered the game or the gaming experience.

I believe he was referring to alternate recipies. The reasons they were removed have been explained earlier in this thread, and it would be a waste of time to go into them again. As it is, alchemy now has a good chance of being rewritten again, so you may tinker with ingredients again to your heart's content.

Until this is done, Aldebaran, you are free to contribute recipe patches to extend alchemy, so it is fair in your view. Recipies are very easy to make, and if the changes are balanced maybe they will get accepted?

[Leaf]

Basically, it comes down to.. scripting is helpful and useful in some instances and an easy mechanism for abuse in others. What can be done to reduce or eliminate the abuse?

Lauwenmark offers an excellent (IMO) suggestion:

.. you can introduce a "fatigue" element on the cauldron: the more you use it, the more it is prone to break. And finally, you could also introduce a "fatigue" element on the alchemist him/herself: it sounds logical that you'd need some rest between difficult formulae..

Skills (like spells, require grace or spell points) require some sort of "points" per use and slow recharge over time. I imagine this is a large coding issue though.

This would help reduce the capability (see quote above) and/or the capacity of players (see below) to perform skills while walking the fine line of fun, challenging & playability while not pounding your head against the wall trying to play economist and tweak pricing.

Here's additional ideas...

The second idea is for cauldrons (anvil/forge, workbench, etc.) to have a very limited lifespan. Since maps reset every 2 hours, the cauldrons would have a life span of 2.25 hours.
* That way anyone who camps on the map would only be able to script for 2.25 hours instead of 12+
* Cauldrons degrade with use, they can an accumlative -1 for each 10 (or some other number) of uses, the - (minus) greatly reduces the chance of success
* The delay time between using the skill and the results is increased dramatically; instead of a water of the wise every 3 seconds, they get one every 15 seconds (again, example numbers..) [so the player doesn't think it is lag, some sort of prompting is added to let them know it's working.. the liquid boils -> the liquid turns to steam -> the end product is ready!]

Perhaps some combination of all that is mentioned above is the approach.. ?

[Rednaxela]

The second idea is for cauldrons (anvil/forge, workbench, etc.) to have a very limited lifespan. Since maps reset every 2 hours, the cauldrons would have a life span of 2.25 hours.
* That way anyone who camps on the map would only be able to script for 2.25 hours instead of 12+
* Cauldrons degrade with use, they can an accumlative -1 for each 10 (or some other number) of uses, the - (minus) greatly reduces the chance of success

I personally think that these could be too harsh on low level non-scripters who do alchemy as is, unless cauldrons are drasticaly (by at least 5 times) reduced in price. Also, should'nt one be allowed to store a cauldron in their permanant apartment forever if they're not using it. However I think the other ideas you mention in your post are quite good.

Lauwenmark offers an excellent (IMO) suggestion:

.. you can introduce a "fatigue" element on the cauldron: the more you use it, the more it is prone to break. And finally, you could also introduce a "fatigue" element on the alchemist him/herself: it sounds logical that you'd need some rest between difficult formulae..

I think that's a good idea too. I'm not sure if I'm intereprating this correctly, but I think that if there is such cauldron fatigue, it should gradually dissappear over long periods of time (begining to disappear after 2 hours or so, and taking about 3 hours more to completely dissappear). Such fatigue with gradual healing would stop scripters, yet give others a chance to keep their cauldron, the only problem with that that I see, is that the scripters could just get many cauldrons and switch around to keep the fatigue low on each.
So it might be good to possibly give alchemy it's own sort of "mana" which is much higher capacity (enough to do at least 15-30 min of alchemy) than normal spell points, and rechanges much slower (many hours, and maby should also include time that the player is offline) with no quick ways to boost it (as in.. potions/crystals). I think that the sort of "alchemy mana" idea above would prevent scripter's exploits, yet not interfere with normal use.

[Aldebaran]

The second idea is for cauldrons (anvil/forge, workbench, etc.) to have a very limited lifespan. Since maps reset every 2 hours, the cauldrons would have a life span of 2.25 hours.

This would be reasonable. I don't think any player would be doing this for over two hours. Most likely only a scripter would be using a stove or a cauldron or a work bench for 2 hours straight. This would not affect "live" players probably and would definatly hinder scripting.

However, that said, I forsee immense problems with the idea of preventing scripters from racking up large sums of money or exp. You would be fighting the very creativity of people and there would always be some way some how to edge out a profit if you simply do some action over and over again for a long time. I do not know if it is possible to simple prevent scripting in some way, if it is eventually I suspect you will have to go that route. I do not know how scripting works, but if you try to stop scripters from one line of proffit they will find another.

As for new guilds costing enormous amounts of money, then you simply increase the incentive to run some money making bot overnight. Every guild will have one, they will have to.
No one else will use guilds if the cost is prohibative.

I have seen several good games go bad when the admins or someone tries to "fix" the economy. If you create an incentive to have platinum, then some players will always find ways of generating enormous amounts of platinum in the easiest way possible.

I have no idea if it is feasible, however one "fix" would be to have the prices shops pay and charge for items float. Each shopkeeper would know the total number of a given item existing in every other shop. The more available the lower the price paid, and perhaps charged. So if a scipter comes in with 5000 bottles of philo oil, and they or someone else has already dumped 50,000 bottles of philo oil, then the price paid for philo oil would be drasticlly less than the price paid for the first load. They would get full price only for what they could carry in the first time. I no nothing about coding, but I expect that would be an enormous project to implement. Even still, some players bent on amassing plat would find some way to do so.

Like I said, I do not know, but I suspect that you will eventually have to choose between a balenced economy and allowing scripting.

I had found a recipe that produced potions of cold resistance and did not require ice para-elemental residues. These were of use to my character, and I never sold them. I also was able to make amulets of aetherality and rings of combat and ice using alternative recipes, these were more a curiosity and I don't believe I sold many of them.

When I said that alchemy was now broken, I ment broken in the most deadly way for a game. Alchemy was no longer any fun. But it will be rewritten apparently. And it may be fun again. I don't really care if it is enormously profitable. As long as it is fun. The recipe for ring of combat was fun. There were a number of ingredients that would have worked but I kept tinkering until I had "sensible" ones. A ring of combat is for soldiers, so it had to have booze, black root like a soldiers heart, and I think orc chops, was the only thing that worked in conjunction with booze and blackroot.

I am still curious, is it desired that there be a class of players who are townsfolk? Craftsmen only who never adventure.

[Ryo]

Like I said, I do not know, but I suspect that you will eventually have to choose between a balenced economy and allowing scripting.

You can't forbid scripting - clients sources are public, so anyone can add script if s/he wants.

[Lauwenmark]

A couple of supplementary notes about the "fatigue" proposal, since it looks like several points about it needed further explanations...

Fatigue of the Cauldron

A cauldron is made of metal. You put it on fire, throw ingredients that react sometimes very savagely inside and apply magical forces as well on it whenever you use one for alchemy. It thus sounds reasonable that it slowly degrades with use up to a point it isn't reliable anymore. I see this as a two-fold process:

- Temporary fatigue, caused for example by the cauldron becoming very hot. Those fatigue points would wear off after a given amount of time;

- Permanent fatigue which represents irreversible damages caused by alchemical processes on the cauldron. Those don't wear off, unless you get the cauldron to somebody able to repair it.

Fatigue by itself doesn't render the cauldron useless: it just increases the chances of it to be destroyed when cooking something in it, possibly with nasty effects (like sudden explosion). Note that this element could actually be used to offer a gradation in the prices: a cheap cauldron would be able to support only a limited amount of fatigue while a costly, luxury one would be able to endure much more.

It also introduces another way to spend money (repairing/replacing your cauldron), making the creation of easy-to-make objects less profitable commercially speaking. Note that since fatigue is completely independent of the difficulty of a given recipe, it is a convenient way to balance some overused recipes. And it is explainable by in-game ideas as well: Water of the Wise may be very easy to cast, but it may require a very high temperature, thus causing a lot of fatigue to the cauldron.

In my own idea, I'd say that an easy formula could cause a high amount of temporary fatigue, but little or no permanent one, thus harming only industrial alchemists. On the other hand, advanced alchemy could cause fewer temporary fatigue, but more permanent one, reflecting the difficulty of the process.

Codewise, I think this is pretty similar to the grace stat - it is spent each time you use it, it slowly recharges itself, but it needs some work to get it fully back. I'd simply make it not visible by default - at most, somebody with the smithery skill could attempt to evaluate the level of fatigue of a cauldron, or a spell may do it as well. Or why not asking Mostrai ?

The important point to keep if this system ever becomes implemented is to make it general enough to be applied to other types of items and spells as well - There are other fields in which fatigue could possibly become an interesting addition in the future. Multiplying stats specific to a given skill isn't a good idea on the long run.

I'm also against of a arbitrary limited lifespan for cauldrons - if you want to buy it and keep it forever unused in your appartments, it is your right. I see no way to justify their auto-destruction after only a short delay. Their total lifespan should depend on what you do with them, so occasional alchemists don't get harmed in the process.

Finally, the question of a possible casting time came up; I'm basically against it, since a lot of legitimate players would probably find annoying to be forced to wait before casting again. Fatigue allows them to cast multiple times in a row - if they are ready to handle the risks involved.

Now, what about the

Alchemist's Fatigue

I'd say that it should basically work as the temporary fatigue I wrote about just before. It slowly recharges over time when doing nothing tiresome. Every complex action (casting a spell, or slashing monsters) should create fatigue. Caster's fatigue shouldn't increase the dangerousity level of the alchemical attempt, but instead its randomness: the more tired you are, the higher the chances of making an error in the process and thus the bigger the randomization of the results.

Caster's fatigue helps fighting the case of scripters using several cauldrons alternatively to "let them cool down" - the caster him/herself will have to "cool down" as well if he wants to still be able to make useful work.

This system has a kind of drawback, though: no longer you can safely play with alchemy whenevr you want and especially after having emptied a couple of dungeons full of monsters. It forces you to planify your future actions. I'm not sure all players would easily agree with that.

As the Cauldron Fatigue, I think the value of this stat shouldn't be clearly visible to the player - at most, he/she should get an evaluation of it, possibly false under some circumstances (drinking alcohol, for example). Some items could help fighting fatigue (like the coffee cup), too.

Other comments

However, that said, I forsee immense problems with the idea of preventing scripters from racking up large sums of money or exp.

I only see one myself: displeasing people who used such tricks in the past.

You would be fighting the very creativity of people and there would always be some way some how to edge out a profit if you simply do some action over and over again for a long time.

I don't call scripting a repetitive action a "very creative" process (at least not in terms of gameplay). Edging some profit by repetitive actions is something that should be prevented as much as possible because it is nuisible to creativity: find a simple way of earing money, then let the machine do it for you. How creative is this supposed to be ?

I do not know if it is possible to simple prevent scripting in some way, if it is eventually I suspect you will have to go that route. I do not know how scripting works, but if you try to stop scripters from one line of proffit they will find another.

Forget it. Scripting is something that is client-side and there's no way to detect it server-side. So everybody with enough programming skills can write some scripting engine if he/she wants to and there's no way to prevent it.
Moreover, it is also forgetting that scripting is not made only for exploiters: it is an answer to many legitimate requests made in the past by 'honest' players.

I have seen several good games go bad when the admins or someone tries to "fix" the economy. If you create an incentive to have platinum, then some players will always find ways of generating enormous amounts of platinum in the easiest way possible.

Sure and that's perfectly normal. "Fixing" the economy simply means ensuring that the "easiest" way isn't "too easy".
Also don't forget that unlike a lot of games, the development of Crossfire isn't an enclosed thing - if you think you have a good idea, then you can submit it, even if you aren't a coder. But always remember that to be useful, your comments need to be precisely argumented: simply saying "I (don't) like it" leaves us coders in the dark. The only thing that counts is Why I (don't) like it. Without the 'why', we can only guess solutions - and yes, it sometimes leads to things players dislike.

I have no idea if it is feasible, however one "fix" would be to have the prices shops pay and charge for items float.

It could indeed be a good way to rebalance things. The problem is that the first sell wouldn't be affected by that - if you manage to make 50000 bottles of philosophical oil and sell them in a single operation, the floating prices would only apply *after* you sold them and thus would render the system somewhat useless: it would harm the next resellers, not the first one.

When I said that alchemy was now broken, I ment broken in the most deadly way for a game. Alchemy was no longer any fun.

I agree with the idea that "something is broken when it isn't fun anymore" - but the older system was ruining the fun as well.
The problem is that complaints always come when it is too late. People first complained about the abuse of the alchemical system. Developers thought about a solution and came up with what's currently available - and now people complain because it ain't fun anymore. It may be very true, but it is a bit late - it is before the coding is done that you, players, need to give your own opinion on the topic.


So now, I ask to seasoned players their opinion about the fatigue idea:
- Do you think it is an acceptable solution ?
- If not, what are the possible issues you see ?
- If not, what is your own proposal to solve the problem ?

If players agree to spend a couple of minutes of their time to answer those, then the future system will probably be satisfying for most of them.

It is up to you now, as I've written enough for today

[Ryo]

Lauwenmark, all those ideas seem just fine & fun

Let's hope we'll implement'em someday ^_-

Some other games (Diablo II comes in mind) do use fatigue as a way to force players to slow sometimes. So we can just add some - after all, players never sleep

Oh, and this way we could have 'real' beds that you could use to sleep & recover from fagitue

[Rednaxela]

I may not have been a player for very long, but I play alot lately. I strongly agree with Lauwenmark's alchemy fatigue solution. However I also believe that cauldrons should be slighly decreased in price as well, to make it easier for the very low level people tinkering with alchemy, however with the low level recipes causing little permnenant fatigue, the decrease in cauldron price should'nt be very much. My one consern, that comes to mind, is with:

Some items could help fighting fatigue (like the coffee cup)

we should be very careful to make such methods ones that can't be done 'in bulk'

[Leaf]

However I also believe that cauldrons should be slighly decreased in price as well, to make it easier for the very low level people tinkering with alchemy

Here's some backround info on why cauldron's cost so much...

With a 30 CHA, I see that a normal cauldron is ~2100 platinum. However, a lab key with access to a cauldron is 58 platinum. If a player wants to take the cauldron in to their apartment or guild, they pay extra for that luxery.

For the other skills, players can gain access to them (anvil, workbench, etc.) for 200 platinum for 2 hours (or until the map resets or the "bench" is destroyed.)